Communism in theory vs in practice
Communism in theory vs in practice
468 comments
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Well, let’s thank Trump for destroying the CIA!
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This map misses some red. For instance, Belgium was also targeted with the Brabant killings (don't remember if Killing Hope covers that. It's been so long, I should read it again anyway.)
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09/11 Chile vibes
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And it's a holiday in Cambodia
Where you'll what you're told
Holiday in Cambodia
Where the slum's got so much soul
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This comment doesn't say anything at all, really. You just state a bunch of vague things and don't connect any of them, you just say everything ends in Oligarchy and don't walk them logically to your conclusion.
Then you just describe a system of "moderation," as though being in the "middle" of things makes it more correct. That would be like saying the sky must be purple if someone says it's blue and the other says its red, there's nothing about being in the middle that makes a position inherently correct.
The world's "successful" Social Democracies, ie the Nordic Countries, are seeing sliding worker protections, and depend on Imperialism to fund their safety nets. They are essentially landlords in country form.
You'd do well to actually engage with Leftists to see what we think and why, rather than reducing everything to some holy reverence for "moderation."
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Maybe there will be a system that taxes the rich in a progressive manner, will give working individuals freedom, will not tolerate corporations as humans and will keep everything somewhere in the middlem
As we all know this approach is infallible as the capitalists will simply give up on changing laws if we just tax them.
Every system is going to end in oligarchy except for the one that directly gives people the power and material incentives to create an oligarchy.
I am a very smart Social Democrat.
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Embrace nihilism and become the real change in the world? Inspiring!
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When people ask me what communist country was successful I usually say all of them until cia decided to go there and spread freedom 🇺🇸🦅
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This guy has never lived in any communist country.
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Well... There was this thing called Soviet Union. They decided to try to speed up the transition to communism by using repression and violence. And ended up being a totalitarian state, a direct opposite of what a communist state is supposed to be like.
Of course you can argue that Soviet Union was not communist, it was just a state that had chosen to call itself communist for propaganda reasons... But still, Soviet Union is an example of a communist country that was unsuccessful as a communist project already by itself. Then came outsiders and helped make it even worse, but bad doesn't become good by some people wanting it to be even worse. Burma is another example. I'd say they hacked away their own leg before anyone else, such as CIA, had time to interfere in their business.
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The USSR is responsible for the largest decrease in poverty in all of world history
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And funnily enough the same can be said of Venezuela (though that's just another corrupt LatAm dictatorship masquerading in "lefty" clothing)
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The USSR had to deal with a civil war, rising up during WWI and being sabotaged by the Germans, more civil war, foreign meddling, and all while being the first successful communist revolution. Yet they still managed to raise literacy, raise health outcomes, raise average life expectancy, gender equality, science and technology, end the cycle of famines (after the first one or two they had when they were still building up), had faster growth during that period than any capitalist country (except maybe the US, which was doing imperialism at the time and the biggest hegemon), all while helping sustain other socialist countries, like Cuba, Venezuela, or North Korea.
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What no theory does to an mf
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TheRe Was THiS THinG CallEd The SoviEt UnioN
The russians got sick of dying for the tsar during ww1. They revolted. Six months later, ww1 "ended" (between germans and british, that is) and everybody was redeployed to russia.
Of course a country that's being invaded is totalitarian, wtf do you expect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
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Maybe don’t brag about your ignorance publicly and keep your mouth shut about things you know nothing about?
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The USSR didn't "do repression and violence to speed up Communism," they had a successful revolution and established Socialism. By all accounts it was quite successful overall, but we can learn from where they erred and adapt for the future.
The only ones who believe the Soviet Union wasn't Socialist are generally Western Trots or liberals/Anarchists who already don't want the form of society Marxists want, which is a government that publicly owns its large and key industries and gradually folds in the new firms that grow to that level until the entire economy is publicly owned.
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Motherfucker what was the Vietnam War?
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Luckily the US is dismantling the CIA so that’s good news for communism!!!
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Oh, dear child…
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I was being facetious
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JDPON DON
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Is this true?? I suspect something closer to the way the KGB was "dismantled" and then re-assembled around the entire government.
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Hopefully the ATF too
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you know, i tell you what. i'm fed up with all this gringo self-righteousness when you talk about "oh communism was bad, oh people where killed, oh people had no food, oh people had no liberty, oh people could not buy ataris, oh our countries are so democratic". your countries were democratic during the cold war in the first place because you had people to sort things out for you here in the global south. for each person complaining about how the food rations in eastern europe were not tasty enough, there were 10 dying of hunger or malnourishment here in the global south. for every person complaining they had to wait 5 years in a queue to buy a trabant or an oka, there were 10 who got no school in a range of 50 km. for every person complaining that their 8 hour shifts in state owned factories were overwhelming, there were 10 who were indentured workers. for every person complaining about how the stasi, kgb or the stb had bugged their apartment, there were 10 suffering the most horrific tortures inside black sites of the military of u.s. allies here in the "third world". for every person complaining about dull standard apartment blocks in mikrorayons, there were 10 who lived in mud shacks and slums, and those are just who were lucky enough to have a roof over their heads. finally, for everyone complaining about chinese sweatshops, which are indeed a problem, there are 10 americans who work and yet cannot afford proper housing.
you wanna complain about how communism was bad? go ahead. you wanna complain how your parents lived under communism and could not drink coke? do so if you wish. but there are still millions of people down here who would give an arm and a leg to have a polish ration, an apartment in a russian gray building, or a yugoslav job. and while the chinese maoist red guard was bad, surely it won't be an inch closer to the harassement people endured on a daily basis by our police forces.
again: you wanna complain? be my guest. but for me that's an encyclopedic example of white privilege.
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You forgot to mention killed relatives or yourself being killed, commie boy. Fuck commies!
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i love to fuck commies, they generally fuck better.
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Why would you not compare european communist countries woth european capitalist countries? Sure, africans and asians were poorer, but that goes without saying, honestly, what does that even have to do with this matter?
East Germany was poorer than west Germany. That tells us something. The fact that Ethiopia or whatever was poorer does not really tell us much about ehich economic system is better.
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Ethopia and the rest of africa got colonized by capitalists, idiot. It tells us a whole lot about which economical system is better.
Of course if you only see the receiving end of theft, you would think theft is great.
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You're conveniently forgeting all the plundering of the global south the good ol' european capitalist countries did to develop themselves.
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West Germany had almost all of the industry of Germany, and East Germany was made to pay harsh reparations for the immense devastation the Nazis wrought upon the Soviet people and countries. Moreover, West Germany was never de-Nazified, and the US and Western Countries heavily invested into its development as a means to destabilize the relations with the East, even threatening to put NATO nukes in West Germany.
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Death to America
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as an american, hell yeah!
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Same, man, same lol. I'm still patriotic during the Olympics, but if we're going to be funding genocides, assassinating leaders, and starting wars and shit, fuck it, I hope we lose them all lol. Let's just start over on the whole project.
I invite US balkanization at this point so I can go hang out in the new sovereign state of whatever CA, WA, and OR will be called. Hawaii can come, too.
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As an Australian I now understand the contempt of the middle east for America.
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Just listen to Blowback.
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Hey I'm European, I have loads of contempt for them too, and same for our sellout leaders.
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whoops, brazil. we had a budding workers movement that was absolutely crushed by the traitorous brazilian military, in the name of the US of course.
that hasnt stopped syndicalism to take root here and improve our lives a bit, but the communist organizations responsible were all crushed and we see our rights being taken away ever since because no one is left to defend them. we are scrambling rn to see if we can stop fascism.
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to anyone who says "why don't you compare communist eastern europe to democratic western europe?". sure, first thing to notice is that eastern europe didn't had companies exploiting underdeveloped nations for their cheap labour and raw materials, their oppression of labour organizations and the support of corrupt rulers. since brazil was mentioned (heh), let us remember that west german companies such as vw or mercedes-benz used to report on syndicalists and communists working and organizing on their plants to the brazilian military during the dictatorship, and sold equipment to the military and police. that siemens sold nuclear reactors to the dictatorship during the late 70s. that many former officials of the dictatorship got leadership jobs in these companies and in basf, hoescht, atlas-schindler, mwm. behind the "economic success" of the rich countries of the west there's always some degree of exploitation of poorer countries.
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I wonder if anyone ever said "Democracy would never work, just look at what happened to Athens".
Socialism and communism are relatively new ideas. While I don't believe communism is an effective form of government, it's still kind of silly to write it off so quickly.
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There isn't really a single form of communist government, same as there isn't a single way to do democracy or capitalism. Every country does it different, experiments a different way. For all we know, the perfect way to do it is just waiting for us to discover.
For example, I'd say the US's form of liberal, bourgeois democracy is one of the worst ways to implement it, but it was also an early experiment with it and deserves credit for at least trying it and helping us learn what to do and what not to do.
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There is a poem in Polish, it goes in fast and dirty translation: "Today you scare us with communists, just as years ago, you scared our fathers with the democrat name".
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The more I study history, the more I see the great wheel of humanity. Communists now, Jews in the 40s, Muslims in the early middles ages, the barbaric Gauls before Christ was even born. It never stops. The people with wisdom die off leaving remnants of their culture and ideas while the next generations tries to piece it all together.
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Someone between 1804 and 1830: Democracy doesn't work, just look at France, it dissolves into an empire
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Or during Rome lol.
Republics don't work. They always just end up authoritarian.
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How, exactly?
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Well the ideal end result depends on the person, doesn't it?
I'm sure Karl Marx and Stalin had very different ideas of what the ideal end result of communism would be.
From my understanding; Marx envisioned a worker's utopia, while Stalin instead used communism to garner as much power for himself as possible.
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Seeing some of the zingers in the comments here, now seems like a great time to plug my "Read Theory, Darn it!" introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list. Read up, comrades!
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The struggle depicted perfectly lol
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For those that don't like to read, you don't have to read theory. In fact, most theory is old. There are newer and better takes on these ideas. Find a good YouTube channel that goes over the ideas. I like Vaush.
If you like to read theory, go for it. But I think there are faster and easier ways to get the concepts.
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For all the people talking about Vaush and Hasan and their controversies, realize that there are other folks out there where you can learn about theory without the Twitch brainrot. The Revolutionary Left podcast is my personal favorite.
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Vaush's whole thing is controversy bait. He purposely crosses lines to get people mad at him while maintaining some form of "plausible deniability" to where his fans can always find a way to defend and excuse his actions by talking about "you don't understand the context" or whatever, it's a very common and tiresome tactic. Like, if you're trying to promote a shitty video game that can't stand on it's own merits, just do something to antagonize either the left or the right (doesn't matter which) and then go to the other group and be like, "Look, the guys you hate hate us, you should check us out." Controversy generates clicks. A big reason for Trump's success is that he cracked the code on how to apply this formula to a political campaign. If you know how to recognize it, it's very obvious that Vaush does this.
This sort of opportunism is very detrimental to actually understanding the world or promoting ideas or building a movement. It's essentially brain-poisoning and a cognitohazard. You're much better off reading actual books than just following whoever's best at attracting attention on the internet. If you are going to shun books for videos, you should at least go with someone more educational, like Shaun.
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You DO have to read theory. Just because it is old doesn't mean it's wrong or outdated.
Also I'm not opposed to watching YouTube videos, but it shouldn't be your only source for it, and recommending Vaush is a huge problem, don't do that.
If anyone wants some actual good recommendations:
In english: Second Thought, Hakim, Yugopnik, Luna Oi, revolutionary_thot, azurescapegoat. There's also Hasan, but he does commentary and not theory teaching or analisys or anything like that.
In portuguese: Ian Neves/História Pública, Laura Sabino, Jones Manoel, Tempero Drag/Rita von Hunty, João Carvalho.
There's of course others, I'm just going by the ones I remember right now.
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Lmfao
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Big yikes
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Support for chasers and sex-pests like Vaush is pretty awful, not to mentions his awful politics and constant butchering of Marxist theory for an audience that usually can't tell the difference.
Theory is important. Much of my list is newer, some is older when it holds up, some is newer when it meaningfully adds to the discussion. However, as someone who had your approach, reading theory directly genuinely is much faster than rolling the dice.
I have audiobooks linked as well that people can listen to if they prefer, and importantly they won't be distorted by a sex-pest who complains about Marxists constantly while misrepresenting them.
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Capitalism only works on a small scale. The second society gets bigger, you require a state with militaristic presence to keep corporations in line. To this very day, the Thatcher/Reagan ideal of "market liberalisation and privatisation" has ALWAYS resulted in the centralised accumulation of capital that became a massive societal divider.
No matter which country you pick, large ones like the USA or Russia, all of them have developed into a divided oligarchy of "haves" and "have nots". [...]
I know you like to cope with "Oh no, the evil minority of bad apples in the owner class again. >:(" but in the end capitalism is a failed ideology that will never work on a large scale without completely surpressing the market and brutally regulating any sign of market dominance of a few corporations.
Edit: typo. And to the cunt who removed Realitaetsverlust's comment: you can suck a cock and die, I wanted to have a normal discussion with them.
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It's very frustrating to me to see people say things like "socialism/communism always ends in a dictatorship" while ignoring that capitalism tends towards oligarchies and monopolies. I'm glad to see someone else pointing out that "capitalism only works on a small scale."
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Capitalism only works on a small scale. The second society gets bigger, you require a state with militaristic presence to keep corporations in line.
Wrong. Half of europe relied so much on american protection that they had barely any military spending. Germany at the forefront, we only have ammunition for like 2 days of combat. So ye, that's nonsense.
No matter which country you pick, large ones like the USA or Russia, all of them have developed into a divided oligarchy of “haves” and “have nots”. […]
The US has been democratic for a major part of their existence. There were up and downs, sure, but it was largely a democratic system. So have many other big capitalistic countries by the way.
Russia, while being capitalist, is an authoritarian system - I'm pretty sure that would've also happened if they were communist. But the oil money they got from the west probably tasted too good.
but in the end capitalism is a failed ideology that will never work on a large scale without completely surpressing the market and brutally regulating any sign of market dominance of a few corporations.
Uuuuh, did you use AI to write this? Because it makes no sense. Personally, I wouldn't mind some regulations. Not sure what your point is here.
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This is generally wrong, though. Communist countries have dramatically democratized society, it works better at large scale if we are speaking of Marxian Communism because that's the Marxist reason for Communism to begin with. Competition centralizes, so in the future it must be publicly owned and planned. This is the basis of Scientific Socialism, primitive Communism is not the same as the post-Socialist Communism, which must be large-scale as production increases in complexity.
Pol Pot wasn't even a Communist.
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Independently of who I side with, I am blocking this community because of the stifling of Realitaetsverlust's comments.
edit: was baffled by the stifling and just researched and learned about Lemmy.ml
it all makes sense now. It is a Socialist Communist instance that censors those not aligned with them. Political leanings don't bother me, but the censorship does so I will be avoiding anything Lemmy.ml in the future. They of course have a right to run their instance how they wish. peace out
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They can at least still be read in the modlog
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Im sure the uyghurs and tibetans see it differently
EDIT: \s
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The Schrödinger’s sarcasm edit 🙄
uyghurs
The US propaganda machine’s “Uyghur genocide” psyop has been debunked six ways to Sunday already. [1] [2]
tibetans
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves, suffering depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile. [1] [2]
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LOL
The horrible feodal system with serfs/slaves the Tibetans has was sooo much better.
Some CIA poking didn't work to bring that back.
And there was a small minority radicalised terrorists by Turkey and OC again the CIA to cause trouble, which they did.
blew up a plane with civilians, multiple other attacks on busses, trainstations, etc....
The majority never liked them and are glad it's over.
But nice try.
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It doesn’t matter what ideology. If the people running it are rotten, any system can be corrupted.
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Could a Communist Nation be considered viable if such a hostile force can take it down? Does it all come down to survival of the fittest (in the best use of the term)?
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It does come back to it because the "fittest" nations are barbarians as shit.
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Yes and no. Yes in the sense that we can get a good idea of what does work as success/failure isn't a binary, no in the sense that, ultimately, the overall strategy ended up not being viable. We can learn from this, taking what works and leaving behind what didn't.
The AES states of today have learned from what happened to the USSR and other former Socialist countries and have adapted, such as China's Socialist Market Economy and stance towards international investment, not closing off but not ceding power.
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Yeah, I remember how my grandfather and everyone he knew fought tooth and nail just to stop America from dismantling communism in eastern Europe!
Oh, wait, he didn't. Everyone celebrated when it fell.
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And then 7 million people died, and most people feel they were better off under Socialism and wished it continued.
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It's easy to say if one has never lived under communism rule. Stalinism caused the Holodomor in Ukraine and starved to death 2-7 million people. Mass deportations of people in Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and many other countries in Eastern Europe. Federated platforms? Forget about it. Everything is controlled by the state. Do you want to say something that the government doesn't like? You can, but then you are off in a concentration camp (gulag) or sent to Siberia. Almost every family has a history of one of its family members being sent or imprisoned because they said something bad about communists / had a farm and could feed themselves with the products from their farm or land. On the contrary I would recommend to read the Animal Farm by George Orwell. - "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
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Because no one who experienced it thought hmm is briliant, yeh nah, socialist policies are needed but not any form of totalitarian communism
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Most people actually preferred Socialism over modern Capitalism in post-Soviet states. Socialism works better than Capitalism, and was more democratic.
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can communism survive in a single country was always a big question.
I think the original idea was to try a world revolution but that didn't work out.
Us is the main holdout. Russia is basically socialist, EU is basically socialist. China is communist.
Us is the only serious holdout
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Russia is Capitalist, the EU is Capitalist, the US is Capitalist, and China is Socialist. Communism must be global, but Socialism is the process of building towards that through publicly owning large firms and key industries. Communism exists as an ideology for now, and hasn't been achieved yet.
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I am a communist by heart, but I know that social market economy is the way to go, at least for now.
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There is no contradiction with these 2 things.
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Kinda? China has a Socialist Market Economy, and this is building up the productive forces dramatically, but not every country will work the same way or have the same path.
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I want that Star Trek future, please!
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you can have a bit of capitalism and a bit of socialism in a healthy mix of free trade economy with regulations
I used to believe this, and I also used to argue against socialists on the same exact grounds.
At some point I noticed that all those nice little bits of socialism that rounded off the edges of capitalism kept getting rolled back. Then I read more about how those safety nets were put up in the first place -- I found out they were all bought with the blood of people much farther left than me, and I saw how violently capitalists opposed them. I found that a lot of the reason those safety nets were so nice for so long in the Global North was that our countries were slaughtering people by the millions (again, a lot of leftists) elsewhere in the world to prop capitalism up.
At that point I stopped just nodding along to all the campfire stories about socialist countries. Maybe, like my standard U.S. education had missed a lot of pretty important things about how capitalism works, it had similarly missed some important things about how socialism works.
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typical european "we are a garden" centrist, i wonder how europe accumulated its capital on the first place!
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I don't know if you've noticed, but Europe is sliding into fascism too, just not as quickly. Regulating capitalism treats the symptoms and not the disease, and so it can only ever bring temporary relief. The problems we are experiencing now are not the product of a broken system, they are the inevitable result of capitalist economics, no matter how restrained.
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Oh boy, another batch of centrists coming in from the Reddit shitstorm... This one oblivious to the fact that far right parties are gaining traction all over Europe.
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Yeah, or like they do in China.
Unfortunately for many parts of the world, it doesn't matter if you're trying to go full socialist or not, if you get in the way of multinational exploitation and neocolonialism, you're gonna get couped. There's no shortage of left-leaning non-socialists who have also been targeted by the CIA. Like Guatemala, where they just wanted to do basic land reform so farmers could work their own land, but Chiquita didn't like that so it became the origin of the term "Banana Republic."
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This isn't true, though. You can't have a "little bit of Socialism" and a "little bit of Capitalism," Socialism and Capitalism are descriptors of overall economies. Regulation in a Capitalist system is still Capitalism, Europe in particular is Imperialist (and increasingly moving to fascism as they fade from relevance in the global stage).
Socialism, on the other hand, absolutely works, and is why the PRC is overtaking everyone else at the moment.
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Needs v wants
Needs: healthcare, utilities, public transport, even a minimal but quality food source. Even to the point of utilitarian but working phones/devices. State ownership where profits are minimal but go back into the state. The services aren't necessarily free, but are run without massive shareholder payouts.
Wants: upgrades and luxuries. iPhones, treat foods, nice cars, silk bedding and those ridiculous marshmallow shoes everyone loves. Regulated but free market.
Now all your basic needs are covered by the community together. You could probably live a simple life with very little income. If you want luxury or fancy, feel free to work too get it.
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I have been trying to put together a document that attempt this concept of ensuring the survival of people, while making money into something used for lifestyle upgrades. Also, heavy emphasis on wealth limits and preferring people over corporations. IMO, corporations are great for personal interests, but are beyond terrible when it comes to the wellbeing of people. Thus, we should make having a job optional, but rewarding.
UNIVERSAL RANKED INCOME
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Europe has the whole "pretend we're better than everyone else" into "kill all nonwhites" bullshit going, better kill em before they hitler again
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if you do not regulate the free market
Wtf are you talking about. There is no such thing as a free market.
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Sir, this is lemmy. Moderate politics are highly upvoted and deeply resented here.
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I can see that, wild that there are people here thinking Communism is ok
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Supporting a system where workers are held down in favor of corporate greed is not and never will be “moderate”
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This is a sane take. This is the only form of economy that actually works well.
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No, Imperialism doesn't actually work well and is failing, meanwhile Socialism is still working and on the rise, such as in the PRC.
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We are seeing the capitalist West's descent into fascism. The direct proof of the 1930's maxim, "fascism is capitalism in decay" between the AFD, Orban, Erdogan, Starmer being basically indistinguishable from a Tory, Macron pulling a Hindenburg by using the presidential power to appoint a prime minister that will unify the center-right liberals with the far-right to prevent the left from having any power in government, and Meloni being an acceptable, reasonable western leader because she follows through with whatever US foreign policy is on offer. We are seeing a direct breakdown because of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall (law of diminishing returns, applied to profit, if you are a child that believes in neoclassical economics). So profit has to be sought out by purely national protectionism and reshoring since there is not a growing pie, but you just have to claim a greater slice of the pie. Capitalism on any sufficient timescale is Fascism, the destruction of WW2 and the Marshall Plan reset this "diminishing return on profitability" so that we are reaching the same state of the 1920s. But since there isn't a strong socialist movement we have to modify Gramsci's assessment. "The old world is dying, a new one is completely stillborn, now and forever is the time of monsters"
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Is-ought fallacy? Understand me correctly, I like the EU system, but to pretend that it's the end of history and that we've reached perfection in this space is wrong.
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Like we do in Europe
This is the only form of economy that actually works with great success.
sarcastic french laugh
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Unless the population pyramid is destroyed, but that won't happen right?
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And it often comes into being because of a CIA financed coup
It's like the chicken or the egg question.
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When has the CIA ever financed a communist coup?
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Never .... the communists / socialists / democratic groups usually reacted because of a CIA financed coup
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not the same thing but this may be related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
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Human greed destroys all forms of government.
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This is one of bourgeois ideology’s last defenses: apathy.
That all the other systems are just as bad.
That it’s just “human nature.”
That there is no alternative. -
Greed is our evolutionary dead end
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Any one party political system can either fail or be maintained through violent oppression. People need to have a say in who represents them and what their values are.
A more sustainable solution than soviet style communism is to have proportional representation and work on instilling socialist virtues such as kindness, social responsibility, and fairness in the population. over time, the people in government will start to reflect those values.
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To be clear, the Soviets did that too. Look at the values instilled in Soviet cartoons for children, as an example. The reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union were far more complicated and nuanced, such as liberalizing the economy, spending a large portion of GDP on millitarization to keep parity with the US, and existing under constant threat from the outside.
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This is a good example of one of things people hate about lemmy.
Communism fan boying, implicit denial of genocides committed by communist powers, out in the open on the front page.
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You're going to find Communists on a website made by Communists. Don't know what you mean by "genocide denial," but in another comment you were unironically recommending the Black Book of Communism's chief writer as a legitimate source, you're doing the "Communism killed 100 million" meme.
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Yeah.
The CIA is why the Soviets fell. Not corruption or incompetence.
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It was complicated. Kruschev, and later Gorbachev's reforms really weakened the Socialist system because they didn't properly retain strong control of the larger firms and heavy industry (a lesson the CPC took to heart), however the CIA and really the US absolutely worked tirelessly to weaken it. The Soviets also had to spend a much larger portion of their production on the millitary in order to keep parity with the US, meaning that development rates began to slow.
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What is complicated about it?
The reforms you refer to allowed for political dissent. If the Soviet Union was some worker's paradise, then allowing people complain wouldn't change anything.
The simple reality is that the Soviet Union was a dictatorship that only survived as long as it did because it was a dictatorship. Once people had the option of opposing Communist rule, they did. And that is what killed the Soviet Union. Not some conspiracy by the United States or the kulaks.
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Guys like yeltsin and gorby being able to rise through the party ranks screams incompetency to me. Even khruschev taking over screams incompetency.
But then again, only socialists goverments are under constant attempts to getting toppled by external agents, capitalist states have had plenty of incompetent people in charge yet theyre not under constant siege.
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What if the answer to all of our worldwide problems is finding a balance between decentralized and centralized structures, balancing technology and the environment, finding a balance between currency and a moneyless society, and achieving balance between authority and liberty (with the goal of individual and societal sovereignty), and so forth?
In this thread, I see Anarcho-Communists (or final stage Communists/ideological purists) taking bat at Marxist-Leninists (who espouse mostly outdated theory, but not always) and Liberals who fail to understand really any ideology that differs from their own because of how thick the propaganda is (and who espouse ideals like Democratic Socialism while failing to realize that their social support is still enabled by modern slavery - such as the exploitation of third world countries).
I think a direct democracy, with authoritative and libertarian elements (such as enforcing liberty/a universal bill of rights for individuals) would be ideal.
It could have an economic system with built-in social supports (each according to their need) that emulates cash and all the best parts of blockchain (that isn't hoardable or worth hoarding, that also doesn't enable slavery/other forms of parasitism, and is generally private at the transactional stage - yet is auditable at a larger-scale), with centralized control of natural resources that still respects decentralized development and balance with the environment. And also does not have debt or parasitism of any form, instead encouraging diplomacy - such as contracts/agreements taking the place of debt to better the planet and encourage societal responsibility and stewardship (e.g. contracts that result in the stabilization of the society incurring the would-be debt).
Instead of total anarchy or various forms of authoritative control/dictatorship, we could simply combine direct democracy and hierarchy by electing leaders based solely on merit in the areas that are most needed, with strong controls so we get the best out of leadership and hierarchy and the resultant clarity and direction, without letting leaders and other experts become drunk on power. While also preventing the corruption of the individuals in power and the various forms of stagnation that result from entrenched power not conceding to new developments or advances.
I know I'm an idealist, but I'd like everybody to turn the chapter and realize that we are in 2025, not the 1900s. Technology and science have advanced every area of our society. We are so beyond scarcity that we are producing well beyond our needs with conditions and methods that are not even close to ideal (with ideal and emergent solutions and methods ready to take the place of those unsustainable methods).
We also have a global communication network - we can understand foreign languages without any human intervention in some cases, we can bridge cultural gaps, we can seek understanding and truth with our fingertips, and also we can push past the propaganda we are served on a platter, etc.
We can achieve something better than anything that has ever been conceived of previously, and it starts by crumpling up all of the things that no longer serve us. Concepts like racism, nationalism, really all of the isms that promote superiority over others. Bridging gaps, joining hands, while also countering disinformation (not misunderstanding) and bad faith.
We truly are not facing the same limitations that we did in the 1900s, although we may be facing new challenges like the rise of AI and the misuse of it by those currently in power.
There really is no more room in society for mucking about and fighting others while everything is in such disrepair, with so much needless suffering happening.
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I just think it's funny when you call ML's outdated despite not really disagreeing with them, and then calling Anarchists "final stage Communists" when Anarchists want decentralization and "final stage Communism" is fully centralized. It more reads that you haven't actually engaged with theory, especially considering the PRC is Marxist-Leninist and is outpacing everyone else at the moment.
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You can think it's funny all you like. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but you misunderstood my grammar. I was detailing two distinct types of people, with different views. The latter (after the or) are more on the side of purity testing other Communists because they see what would unfold after many, many years of Communism as de-facto Communism and proof that others are not true Communists (hence the slash ideological purists part).
I currently choose to engage with emergent (and divergent) thought, not snapshots and echoes of the past - but I'm not trying to devalue it - I'm just very interested in modern Marxist-Leninist discourse and thought. I have previously engaged with the theory and understand the history that surrounded it and level of technology that we had in the 1900s.
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Damn CIA created Maoism
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This isn't true, actually. AES states are democratic, you should read Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan.
Northern European countries aren't role models, either. They depend on Imperialism to fund their safety nets, and are dictatorships of the Bourgeoisie, hence why their safety nets are declining.
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so by the definition of true communism, they arent adhering to the marxist definition of communism, its merely a show of democracy controlled by an oligarchy with a single party system in the case of russia.
i dont think any monetary economic system can work long term in balance with human needs and the need of the planet to sustain us. its just not possible when there is an imaginary incentive in the form of value in 1's and 0's or paper, that alters our actions based on accumulation of wealth for the individual and their "tribe", and whatever form that may take. family, friends, companies, shareholders, class, nation etc etc.
unfortunately its hard to draw a line between automated post monetary, post scarcity, post political, post religion, and a science/ fact/resource based economy/utopia, similar to the venus project, and a technofascist authoritarian state, which is seemingly where we are heading now with how AI is being used by the powers that be.
human error and our limited willingness to understand the needs of the many in the future, vs the needs of the few now will always be a buffer that keeps us behind in terms of societaly advancement in the form of full economic freedom and change, for the betterment of man, and the planet, in harmony.
the only way to advance past that is either to manipulate the genome of humans, or to merge with machines and AI so that our decisions are based on scientific merit and logic towards a value of united progress, over individual success. essentially we would have to sacrifice what makes us human, so humanity could survive in an alternate form. or become some sort of digital hive mind. or some other weird and horrifying scifi trope that i hope i never live long enough to see.
im not advocating for this, im just saying this is where the world is likely moving if we dont blow ourselves up first or wipe the slate in some way.
feel free to disagree, i love having these kinds of discussions.
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All communist states that survived early CIA coup plots were/are dictatorships
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Those aren’t/weren’t communist so per the post their leaders worked for the CIA
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I think the problem with Communism and Capitalism, is that both were implemented in the first place without specific goals or structure. Those things got added on later, such as the 5 year plans or how lobbying works.
IMO, we will need a v2.0 Constitution in the future, designed not only to address political issues, but also create fiscal rules. Things like universal benefits and healthcare, how much people should be payed, wealth limits, workers voting for their leadership, and so on. This, like the Magna Carta or the French Revolution, will require force in order to displace the ways of old.
It will suck, but conflict seems inevitable. Might as well make the most of it, and forge a new way forward.
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This is just Utopianism, repackaged. Communism was planned, but you can't just design a system in a lab and implement it through fiat, which is why you must regularly adapt to your materil conditions.
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Money is imaginary. It was invented for the purpose of saving time through pure convenience. Why not go a step further, and sacrifice some profit for the sake of giving everybody some security and agency? What efficiency we lose, we get back in people being able to enjoy the fruits of civilization. Money only has value if people agree that it does, and we should apply that understanding towards redefining the purpose of money: luxuries.
The elite have hoarded the value of what workers have provided to society, and then consistently throws those same workers under the bus. Your "material conditions", is just unfettered abuse.
Also, the system I laid out? It gives political agency to ordinary people, because they can protest and strike without losing their home or starving. This takes away the greatest tool of coercion that capitalism wields against workers. That is way more valuable than raw profit, because people can oppose bad actors in society. Like Schuemer, or Trump himself. Same goes for shitty workplaces - people can genuinely wait for a better job. This will force many bad companies out of business, because people want to be treated humanly.
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If it's not the CIA it will be a coup from some smart ass****e high ranked in the military/party.
Humans are to greedy to live in a socialist peaceful world.
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Have you considered a world where power is based in social welfare instead of capital?
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Would be nice, but it just never going to happen.
We've been there already.
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That doesn't make any sense, though, greed has a larger impact on Capitalist systems as its the main mover and driver.
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Yes, exactly! For all the noxious effects of greed, it drives competition which drives evolution.
Even if a utopian communist/anarchist society were able to stabilize on its own, it would inevitably be overcome at some point in the future by a more competitive society that had martially evolved beyond the utopia's understanding.
Whether its right or wrong has no bearing on the entropy of it.
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Worker owned cooperatives would go a fair way to seizing the means of production.
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Kinda. They are nicer to work at, but aren't what Marx is talking about, as they still retain classes due non-coop people having different property relations to those in the coop.
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Even without interference communism can never work, it's not how human nature works, it relys on everyone being on the same page which will never happen
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it's not how human nature works
where is human nature defined?
this is a thought-terminating cliche, not an my argument to be taken seriously
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do you realize that you are contradicting your statement? You talk of "human nature" as a law of nature, something that cannot be changed and has to conform every single time, but then you mention that people are just different lmao.
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People who talk of “human nature” are white supremacists. The idea is that groups and people with different cultures are not human is what underpins this whole concept
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It's in our genetics to engage in a perpetual exponential quarterly growth and make our decisions based on the benefit it brings to our investors. Any caveman could tell you that smh...
E: my god it's a hyperbolically absurd take in memes and even with the caveman comment I still need to /s apparently...
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No, cavemen were very egalitarian. This is because back then, you couldn't hoard much of anything - food spoils quickly, sex requires your partner to like you, and personal possessions were things like tools or the odd bit of clothing. It was when wealth could be preserved, such as livestock, stored grain, jewelry, and eventually coinage, that wealth became an hereditary thing.
This is why a future economic system has to be designed to prevent the excessive hoarding of wealth. Not too little, nor too much. Humans weren't evolved to be free of consequence, especially from each other.
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No, but greed and envy is. That's why humans have written so much in the last thousand years about greed and envy.
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How does it rely on "everyone being on the same page?" What gave you that impression?
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Anthropology doesn't support the idea that humans are incapable of being communal.
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Haha no communism can force you to go against your evil "human nature" so you have to aid the collective people, who mostly have a good human nature
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Kind of some level of any system isn't it? In short if a system has a means to power that can tweak the rules. Inevitably will result in one group ceasing the rules, turning them to raise how much they can tweak them, and ensuring they continue to be tweaked in their favor.
Communism relies on a possibly impossible starting point. Theoretically if the starting point were reached, it seems the most sustainable. Whether it's possible to reach that starting point is the great mystery.
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What "possibly impossible starting point" does Communism rely on? This reads like someone that hasn't actually attempted to engage with what Communists believe, to be honest.
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Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head here. It's interesting to think about how even though communism could theoretically be the best system, it could mean nothing if we don't know how to meet the conditions to achieve it in the first place.
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There's never been any real communism. If a country has money then it is inherently a capitalist society .
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Upvoting this just because it made me laugh.
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the world understander has commented
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Money and trade are not Capitalism. Capitalism is a specific Mode of Production that rapidly expanded with the Industrial Revolution, surrounding the M-C-M' circuit of production.
Socialist societies have existed and continue to, such as the PRC, Cuba, and former USSR.
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Says there's communist countries, lists off all capitalist countries instead.
All of those countries have used money, had a class system, have used wage slave labour and are nation states. All of that combined makes a nation capitalist in my view. Just because a country says it's "communist" doesn't mean anything when all those countries are playing the capitalist rule set. It's like saying you're going to play candy land but you have the rules of monopoly. It just doesn't work to call those countries communist or socialist when they are still playing the capitalist rule set.
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What no theory does to an mf.
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I don't think money makes a society inherently capitalist, money predates capitalism by a loooong time, but I agree that if it has money it isn't communist. It can be on its way to communist, a transitonary state, and depending on your definition it can be socialist, but communist is explicitly a moneyless, classless, stateless society. So, yeah, if it's got it money, it's not communist, but saying it's capitalist is to create a false dichotomy of there only being fully realized communism or capitalism, with nothing outside of or in-between the two.
Eta: replied to the wrong person in the thread. Whoops. Meant to reply to the original commenter on this thread.
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Communist can run a society that is not yet achieved communism. Not sure if you're being purposely dense or not.
Also, currency does not define a society as capitalist. We've have currency long before capitalism ever existed.
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I read this as communism has never failed
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trvth nvke
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Well there's never been any real communsim on earth yet so that's technically correct.
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