Well, I guess we're all in it together
Well, I guess we're all in it together
Not smugposting. Shit sucks. :(
66 comments
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Let's be clear, if you're American, British, Canadian, French or now German, there's an operation at foot to promote hard right extremes and disrupt your country. True of probably most of the world, really, even if it hasn't fully taken root in your country.
Ultimately, yes, we're in this together so no matter what your anger (or smugness level) is, keep in mind nothing good comes from other-ing those on the same side of history as you.
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Theres also Romania, who almost elected a pro-russian right-wing extremist, and Moldova, whose citizens have been bribed to vote against joining the EU
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Realistically Moldova shouldn't be in the EU anyway. There are quite a few countries that have been admitted into the European Union that really shouldn't have been. Nations with economic instability (for whatever reason) joining the single market only caused problems for the single market.
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Right-Wing parties are not in power in any of those countries except America. Sure there is a plan to try and promote right-wing ideologies in those countries they're always is a plan to promote right-wing ideologies it's what the right wing is for.
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The people posting denigrating memes and sparking those rage-filled threads are the trash of the Earth. Infighting helps absolutely nobody.
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You're right. If you see the world not as a conflict between nation states but as a class war all of this makes a lot more sense. This is not to say that nation states don't matter. They are absolutely still used by the ruling class to maintain order and justify their actions as a "defense of our nation and culture". Fascism has no hard rules or ideologies. It is used to defend capitalist interests and power. It is why we are seeing the rise in far right politics in the west.
The capitalist class does not know borders; it knows class interest. Fascism is the defense of this interest in the face of capitalism internal contradictions.
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Proof?
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They're in better shape than we are. Their conservative government probably won't be in a coalition with, much less led by, the Nazis. But yeah. Shit sucks.
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The AfD is the German version of the present day US Republicans and they only got 20% of the vote, not won both a Presidency (which in Germany is mainly a symbolic post) and an absolute majority in the Bundestag (roughly, their Congress).
Further, just like the effects of Brexit on the UK cooled down for at least a decade the anti-EU sentiment in the rest of Europe, what Trump and the Republicans are doing with the power they got in the US is likely to (once enough of the side effects of his actions pile up) cool down any love for that kind of Fascism in the rest of the West.
The Far Right has an ideological framework of purelly criticizing/complaining/accusing, which is great when you're an observer sitting on the sidelines and shouting about how those who are actually doing things are doing it all wrong, but doesn't at all work when they're in a position where they actually need to do things themselves, so they invariably fuck things up badly, generally because over the mid and long term the side effects of their actions completelly wipe-out any positive direct effects those actions were expected to have and then remain active and further destroying for far longer than the positive effects do.
IMHO, the danger for the rest of the West is far more that Elon and Trump start WWIII, than that people in other countries will be inspired to follow their ideology by seeing what they do with it in the US.
(The danger for the US, which I suspect is pretty much guaranteed since both major parties there have sided with the Pillager segment of society, is the country will be firmly and forever dethroned from its position as super power within a decade)
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There is something that happens when fascism's failures become increasingly obvious. They don't necessarily lose power. What they do is insist that the problem is that they weren't cruel enough so far.
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"You can deceive some people all of the time or all people some of the time, but you can't deceive all people all of the time".
My point is that they need to deceive all people (well, most people) to get into power in most Democracies and their lies only stretch so far once they have to actually show results in things that matter to everybody, so eventually they're back at deceiving some people (i.e. true believers) all of the time just like when they started and that's not enough for power (plus the distrust in them after they had power, fucked it up and the many stopped believing their lies, tends to last at least a few decades).
As long as they can be voted away Fascists, whilst never going extinct (there are always the true believers), will not hold power for long.
However if they manage to change the system into Autoritarianism (like Orban in Hungary and Putin in Russia) they can stay there until the day they die.
So back to my original point, Trump might become dictator for life in the US if he manages to subvert what little is left of Democracy in that country, but due to the huge media exposure of US policy everywhere in the World, his example will be counted in the "can't deceive all people all of the time" side for any wannabe Fascists everywhere who haven't already got themselves enough power to destroy the Democratic system in their country.
PS: Thinking about this, Europe in the time when the NAZI party was growing is a great example of my point - several countries turned Fascist at the same time as Germany and those which didn't participate in WWII in the side of the Axis and got defeated (like Spain and Portugal) remained Fascist Dictatorships for decades, but countries which had strong internal support for Fascist ideas (such as the UK, were there is even a photo of young Princess Elizabeth - later Queen - being taught how to do a NAZI salute by her uncle the then King) during the growth of the NAZI party but hadn't turn Fascist by the time Germany invaded neighbouring countries, turned away from Fascism when that happenned and never became Fascist nations. Further, this had impact outside Europe (including in the US were there was also a lot of support for Fascism) and only by the 70s did Fascism returned somewhere (specifically, the Pinochet Dictatorship in Chile from 1973 to 1990).
(That said the exception is Greece which became Fascist right after the end of WWII, curiously with the military support of the Brits who attacked the Communist Resistance in Greece to stop that nation from turning Communist and allowed the Fascists to take power)
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The CDU guy who's about to be chancellor is the classic "economically liberal, anti regulation, blame foreigners for all violence" far right who pretends he's not far right by taking the head of a party that keeps helping the far right rhetoric, instead of straight up joining the far right party, for some reason. He's been mad at Merkel for 20 years because she sidelined him in the party because he was too much further right. He's not Musk, but he's the guy who keeps making sure Musk and Trump never get shut down.
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Well, then it might very well be that the effects of Trump's policies did not manifest themselves on time to sway Germans away from the Far-Right.
Having lived through Brexit, I still very much expect that what Trump is now doing in the US will fuckup most of the Far-Right in Europe. This belief is also anchored on what we are now seeing in countries which were "ahead of the curve" in bringing the Far-Right into Government, such as Poland, who are now turning away from it as well as things like the recent, sudden and somehow unexpected growth of the (real) Leftwing reversing the trend of moving to the Right in places like Finland.
I expect that, given its much greater economic dominance, size and footprint of reporting about it in of the media space, the example of the US will be far more visible and impactful in the general population of Europe than the examples of Hungary, Poland or Finland.
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I don’t want to unnecessarily downplay fears, but I think the main way a world war would be initiated here would require them to win over the army. While there’s some nutjobs in that sector that will gleefully imprison defenseless immigrants, I don’t think anyone wants to go to war against a world power, and many have taken an oath against following blatantly evil orders.
Much of the control exerted by Trump has been through emails and small bands of fowl actors given security through the executive branch. They also have a faction of chaos enabled by the J6 rioters, who are spiteful but not someone he can direct. That’s scary, but it also means he doesn’t have any kind of actual legion of force lifting their arms in unified salutes.
There is some danger of war creeping out through Russia’s constant slow greed, which would likely mean the USA not getting involved until our internal politics can reach an agreement.
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Trump just replaced the the chairman of the joint Chiefs of staff (the highest military position) with a syncopant. He has 4 more years to purge the military and he is absolutely going to try.
If the military stops his coup, it will be the lower ranks overthrowing the leadership. I have no faith. The military will be a different beast by the time trump goes for a third term.
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Whilst I would say that triggering an Economic Crisis in the US which spreads to other Economies is a greater risk than a World War, American Presidents starting wars to distract from their own mismanagement is tradition and given Trump's "if some is good, the maximum possible is the bestest" philosphy in his policy choices so far in this presidency, him through an accumulation of measures that make enemies out of friends, and small military interventions creating a situation that escalates to WWIII, is a realistic possibility.
I mean the idea that the threat of Military Force is a valid tool even against US Allies predates Trump - just look at the Legislation Congress passed to invade The Netherlands if ever an American national was arrested by the ICC - and Fascists traditionally see Military Force as a perfect valid tool in the Great Game and Allies as only good as long as they're useful.
Considering just how many Americans voted for him and the brainwashed hyper-nationalism that's the bread and butter of military training everywhere, I wouldn't rely on the US Army to not go ahead and attack a target in a country that was deemed a US Ally just months earlier and something like that escalating to something much bigger.
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Tbf afd didn't win a plurality, they will almost certainly not be in government.
Its likely CDU + SPD
afd got about 20%
Its concerning tho, since NSDAP got 18.3% in 1930, and just 2 years later, they became the biggest party and won a plurality of seats in 1932 and a year later win 43.9% of the seats with hitler becoming chancellor
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The 1933 elections were unfree, and within the two election 1932 they dropped from 37.4 to 33.1. Still not enough votes to pass the enabling act so they arrested SPD+KPD politicians and then used a simple majority to change the quorum rules such that the absent votes would not count against them.
It's fascinating how much legal theatre they did to give a legalistic paint job to their power grab. Completely different to Trump, more like corporate lawyers.
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I've been commenting this on a lot of memes in that vein, it was plainly obvious from the German polls and the various EU-countries that got a rightwing government in recent years.
Yeah, shit sucks.
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The German results are more like the US in 2004. If they are headed to the same fate they are 20 years behind us.
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Thats not at all how politics and fascism works. Germany is not isolated from the rest of the world and in some time capsule. It's definitely not "like the US in 2004" because we're living in 2025. And it's not just AFD. Even the greens are fear mongering over immigrants. Germany wasn't somehow isolated from the rise in islamophbia since 2001. They have been a major part of that and are talking about Muslims like they are Jews in 1930s Germany.
Fascism doesn't have a 20 year lag. It very often arises in major world powers at the same time. This is due to it being a defensive response of the capitalist class in class conflict. What is happening in the US is also happening in Germany.
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The parallels are stark, but the German results are less worrying to me than the American.
Maybe I will be wrong in a month or a year, but so far the Germans are in the "unhappy with the system, try the other major party" stage rather than the "burn it all down and give it to the strongman" stage we find ourselves in here in America.
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Are americans aware that the vast majority of Europe is not German?
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Nein
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Die
Bröt
Die
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Yeah, I'm also aware that the right's been on the rise in Denmark, France, Italy, and the Netherlands at a minimum. The UK seems to have taken a moment to catch their breath, but I'm not convinced that they're completely over it.
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The right also already won elections in Sweden and Finland, and Austria ... they already had a far right party in the government in the 00's.
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Not yet
but if afd wins, y'all have to speak german becuase... gestures at history 👀
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The European Union is literally just the Holy Roman Empire 2. You're all German whether you like it or not. And yes, you canadians are also European since you are still beholden to The Forsaken Queen.
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Didnt know Weidel was elected Chancellor.
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Eh, Fritze is just slightly better…
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Fotzenfritz is the difference between selling out to Russia and Europe while killing the welfare state and just killing the welfare state. I take one shitty thing happening over two every day of the week.
Aaand he is not Trump. Not by along shot. Sleezeball, Rich Cunt, yeah; Rapist, Dictator, Putins little Sub-bitch, no.
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Americans feel lectured by Europeans?
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There was a massively popular post a few days ago essentially calling all Americans fat, lazy, assholes that are allowing Trump to ruin the world. It specifically targeted those of us that did not vote for Trump.
It was divisive, unhelpful, and idioticly ignorant. I was told by multiple people to start riots in my small blue city in California, and to personally martyr myself to take out problematic people.
I think it got taken down, but only because the person who posted it changed their entire post to rant about how shitty the moderators were. Ironically, I actually agreed with OP after that change, considering they never took any of those posts down inciting absolutely pointless violence.
Edit: I'll name and shame. It was "Political Memes@lemmy.world". I have a very negative view of them at this point. I suspect the thread was loaded with propagandists trying to weaken all of us fighting against fascism.
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I see the point.
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The European mind cannot comprehend how being sneered and looked at funny from thousand of kilometers away doesn't deal massive emotional damage to the receiver of such devastating assault
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Germany voted for CDU/CSU, more akin to the Democrats. The Republican equivalent would be the Nazi party AfD.
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I literally warned them like 2 days ago.
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So now I have to side with my left-wing dictator
66 comments
Our conservatives aren't literal Nazis. And yeah, the actual literal Nazis at 20% is horrifying but it's not like they're going to be part of the government. It's going to be a coalition between the conservatives from the Union and the allegedly social democratic Social Democratic Party. If there's majority for that they'll add the vaguely progressive Greens to the mix.
Meanwhile the US has turned itself into a Nazi broligarchy.
We can still be smug. Sorry America.
Edit: and yes, this post is heavy on copium.
Basically, the CDU/CSU is comparable to the US Democrats, and the AfD is comparable to the Republicans: racist, xenophobe misgonysts.
Like the US Democrats the CDU/CSU is also deeply racist, in favor of deporting immigrants and using LGBT only as a scapegoat to claim how much more civilised they are compared to the brown people. Oh and of course they are suckers for Zionism as it gives them a chance to ramp up hatred against Arabs and cheer on as Arabs get murdered.
Finally of course the CDU/CSU takes every opportunity to help tye fascist rise to power.
Yeah, I remember when we were telling ourselves the nazis would never govern. I was so confident I brought a nice cigar and bottle of scotch to the watch party. I never did smoke that cigar, but I went through that whole bottle nearly on my own and had to sleep it off on my friend’s couch.
Meanwhile... Meloni, Duda, Orban, the RN, and the AfD are all already part of their respective governments...
This is fine. Surely.
AfD is being excluded from governing, no one wants to make a coalition.
Unless I'm about to check the news and see the cordon broken...
AfD is not going to be part of the gov as it stands, and Orbán is going out next year as things are.
We are trying to fight back.
The RN is not part of the government.
They will eventually pull a Donald Trump
Can I just jump in here and say "broligarchy" is now my new favourite term
Any headway a far-right party gets in Germany is extra bad because of your history - you should know better more than anyone else. It would be inadvisable to be smug, because you're heading in the same direction we are.
Same with Belgium.
Many people voted for the extreme right because of Russian misinformation campaigns. But none of the other parties want anything to do with them because they didn't fall for it. Especially the center right parties. They rather cozy up with the left than to give fascist any power.
That's not a very strong argument when they enable the Nazis, and I say this as a European. In my opinion we should all organize, and fight fascism the way it's historically defeated: unionisation, mutual aid, and socialist organization.