How was this a surprise?

If a con man offers me the world, and you offer me nothing, and I listen to the con man... I've still fallen for the con, my guy.

Not really. You just chose the least shitty option you were being forced into.
But I understand acknowledging that would interfere with your ability to feel smug.
- How is a lie 'the least shitty option?'
  
  Because it’s a binary choice where the other option is someone not even willing to pretend they’ll help you.
  
  Still a bad option.
  The person who is upfront about it can be reasoned with. The liar is never going to be trustworthy.
  If the guy at the train station lies and tells me that the train will be here in an hour I waste an hour. If he tells me the train has been cancelled I know to make another plan.
  
  A better example would be a waiter who spits on your sandwich in the kitchen vs one who’ll spit on it after they drop it off at the table.
  Your best choice is to burn down the diner.
  
  Nothing says 'privilege' more than people who talk about burning the system down.
  It's like the guys who have never been in a fight are always ready to see other people go at it.
  
  I don’t know. Expecting people to go along with a system that’s literally killing them seems way more privileged. You must not be suffering under the current status quo.
  
  Look at Ukraine or Gaza if you want to see suffering.
  Like I said, 'privilege.'
  
  Again, you’re outing yourself. Not only do you obviously not have a US corporation or cop pointing a gun at you, but you can’t even perceive the people around you who do.
  
  Even your own example doesn't prove your point. I'd rather someone spit in my food where I can see it and ignore it.
  
  Actually, that’s exactly my point. Blue MAGA acts shocked people don’t want to bury their heads in the sand with them, and expects the rest of us to stop complaining and just eat the spit.
  
  So you would rather eat spit than see someone spit in your food and send it back? No wonder you're praising republicans
  
  No, I’d rather shoot the person who spit in my sandwich.
  You’re the one who believes the only alternative to democrats is republicans. Don’t project your idiocy onto me.
- What? How am I being smug by just pointing out that falling for a con is... Falling for a con? Trump is a well, well, well documented con man. Like... Maybe the most well documented con man ever. It's really hard to feel bad for anyone who voted for him getting screwed over.
  
  Love the ‘how am I being smug?!’ followed by the classic smug victim blaming.
  Both Dem and GOP supporters are being conned. Neither of you are in a position to be pointing fingers at the other.
  
  To be clear, I don't blame people who fall for scams or cons. I did say it's hard to feel bad for Trump voters specifically, but that's a pretty special circumstance as I tried to describe.
  All I said was that falling for a scam or con is falling for a scam or con.
  
  Yeah. That’s called ‘being smug.’ Especially if you just voted for the other fascist.
  
  Why do you presume to know who I voted for? Or that I'm even American?
  I really don't think we share the same definition of smug. Have a good day.

Except they had some coherent and sound policy? A lot if it is way too status quo or populist when that clearly isnt working.

Trump has some sound policy too (as much as Lemmy would hate to admit it), but its also filled with obvious leapord face eating proposals, even if you 100% believe him.

And its not like he hasn't been president already, albeit much more restrained before.

Thats the most baffling thing about Trump support to me... There's this hope, this fantasy he's the change we need when we have no other choice, when that is absolutely not true if you look at his cabinet, history, and policy. He's a grifter even if you look at hus history before politics. Why does he get the benefit of the doubt?

What was their coherent and sound policy?
Dems just still believe they’re entitled to the working class vote, and aren’t willing to offer anything to earn it. Still the failed Clinton strategy of skipping them over, but counting on their votes anyway.
- Uh, how about not giving the rich massive tax breaks and rocketing the national debt even higher so quickly? Anti inflation measures, support for higher wages? Actual support for unions, as tepid as it may be? Attempts to relieve debt? Let's start with that.
  What exactly do you think Trump is even theoretically bringing that Dems aren't?
  
  The Dems were not offering anything like that. You’re pulling that out of your ass.
  I didn’t say Trump was better. The Dems and GOP are two sides of the same fascist coin. We have to defeat them both.
  
  Those were the basics of Harris's platform. Tax the wealthy, support unions, tamper inflation.
  
  No, it wasn’t. There were some vague and empty promises, but that kinda thing is a hard sell when you’re already in power and not doing those things.
  
  Wait, so now they have "vague and empty promises"? I thought they couldn't even be bothered to lie, and had nothing to offer, making a con-man preferable?
  I kinda feel like you're just more mad at Democrats than you are at Republicans who are actually doing bad things.
  
  Yes, I am more mad at Democrats than Republicans. They’re both doing bad things, but the Dems are the ones trying to pretend they’re not and claiming they represent our interests. Doing what Dems have always done, and absorbing leftist energy to actively prevent change.
  
  Because the party has become completely focused on high dollar salaries for the consultants running these campaigns. And they wonder why that doesn’t translate into victory.
- https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/04/26/executive-order-on-worker-organizing-and-empowerment/
  Do executive orders count?
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_the_Right_to_Organize_Act
  What about pro-union congressional bills that are being blocked by Republicans?
  What exactly is the Republican coherent and sound policy? Because the one I've seen is largely union-busting and cutting regulations on businesses. Democrats have definitely failed to show the work they're doing and show how Republicans have fought tooth and nail to block and roll back worker protections, but it is entirely disingenuous to claim Dems "openly don't give a shit about you."
  
  When did I imply Republicans have anything better? Gonna blow your mind here: criticism of Dems is not support of Republicans.
  No, I’m not satisfied with symbolic efforts from Dems. Clearly, most of the country isn’t either.
  
  If your only options are someone who openly doesn’t give a shit about you, or someone who pretends to (even though they’re probably lying), you’re better off taking a chance on the lie.
  There. Where you say republicans are probably lying but you're better off taking a chance on a lie. If you hold both parties to a different standard to the detriment of one, you're supporting one of those parties over the other.
  
  You’re projecting your binary worldview onto me. Only way you could interpret it that way.
  
  You've been projecting the insides of your asshole all over this fucking thread.
  Shut up fuck off and stop pulling shit out if that gaping barn door of an ass while lying through your fucking teeth.
  
  Take your meds bro.
  
  lmaooo
  
  Y’all get so offended by any criticism of the Blue MAGA cult. Wild you can so smugly laugh at the Red MAGA cult at the same time. No self-awareness.
  
  Unfortunately, a lot of Dem supporters are following the party right instead. Never thought I’d see so many people deceive themselves into believing they’re the good ones, while openly supporting genocide.

You're right critical thinking is hard for people, but it's still a con and they still fell for it.

If you know the political process is filled with liars and your only options is someone that doesn't want to make overblown statements that are clearly lies and someone that does lie (you know this because of his past lies) then you should have picked the person that lies the least.

Not necessarily. They didn’t need to believe it in order to consider it the least bad option.
Dems are still riding with the Clinton “basket of deplorables” failed strategy. They openly and outwardly despise any voters that aren’t white collar liberals. And y’all have the gall to criticize these people for not jumping onboard with a party who proudly hates them. Unbelievably obtuse.
- That's not what "basket of deplorables" meant
  
  K. Tell me what you think it means.
  
  It's referring to the subset of republicans that are openly evil, not just people who "aren't white collar liberals"

Wile not “both sides” as one side is obviously worse, the democrats did actively work against unions during Biden’s presidency. And sure Biden made talk about passing PRO, which he failed to do, but he also forced terms on the rail unions, and made it illegal for them to strike, and thus making the rail union forever powerless to fight for its members, and dooming it to obsolescence

Which side is obviously worse?
I thought we established long ago that committing a genocide is the worst thing anyone can possibly do. And they both are doing that.
- One promises to do it better.
  
  They both do. They’re both lying.
  
  I ain’t going to bother trying to defend democrats from how terrible they are, but it’s no contest as to which is worse objectively. It’s not even close.
  
  Depends if you judge politicians by their promises or their actions.
  I judge their actions, and the parties are nearly identical by that measure.
  
  Good thing i get to judge the whole republican party by their actions then
  
  You’re supposed to be doing that for all parties and politicians. This is what makes you an easy mark for the Dems.
  
  I don’t know what to tell you. Republicans stance on environment, terrible. Republicans stance on separation of church and state, terrible.
  Republican stance on healthcare, terrible. Republican stance on education, terrible. Republican stance on the deficit, terrible. Republican stance on international politics terrible. Republican stance recreational drugs, terrible. Republican stance on taxes, terrible. Republican stance on corporations, terrible Republican stance on vote reform, terrible. Republican stance on the prison system, terrible. Republican stance on civil liberties, terrible. Republican stance on the pandemic, terrible. Republican stance on Russia, terrible. Republican stance on Ukraine, terrible. Republican stance on Israel, terrible. Republican stance on the industrial military complex, terrible. Republican stance on gun ownership, conditional. Republican stance on immigration, terrible. Republican stance disaster recovery, terrible. Republican stance on the economy, terrible. Republican stance on checks and balances, terrible. Republican stance on the military, terrible. Republican stance on infrastructure, terrible. Republican stance on reproductive rights, terrible. Republican stance on climate change, wrong. Republican stance on assistance programs, terrible. Republican stance on affordable housing, terrible. Republican stance on Project 2025 fucking terrible.
  While the democrats fail a lot of these as well, they are not on lock step wrong, and too far less degrees. Indeed when given any choice, i can determine the Republican answer by its unnecessary cruelty, more so then any fiscal responsibility, or what ever false cause they pay lip service too.
  
  I think i see the problem. You’re judging their stances, when you should be judging their actions.
  When you make the adjustment, the ruse will become clear.

The mental gymnastics here are insane

Not nearly as insane as expecting people you’ll do nothing for to help you get elected.
- That's not the same thing as saying that republicans are better because they're lying to you while giving you worse policies lmao
  
  No one said that.
  
  "you’re better off taking a chance on the lie."
  I guess you didn't technically say that republicans have worse policies, but... please don't tell me you believe they're even comparable
  
  Oh they’re not comparable? Which party isn’t supporting genocide right now?
  
  Unless you care about literally nothing else, that doesn't make the two parties equal. Trump is more enthusiastic about that anyways and has actively sabotaged Biden's ceasefire attempts and said he would destroy Palestine entirely. It's pretty close though tbh considering Biden keeps sending weapons. I wish the dems would just man up and back out of there
  
  I care about plenty of other things, too. The climate, income inequality, homelessness rates, hunger rates, corporate greed, the out of control military industrial complex, immigration reform, prison industrial complex, etc. The Dems and GOP are equal on all of that. Genocide is just the worst thing imaginable, so it’s the subject most worth mentioning.
  Dems might have slightly better rhetoric, but people can’t eat promises.
  
  Are you kidding me? Like legit is this a troll? In what reality are dems and repubs even remotely close on most of those issues?
  Actually you know what, I'm bored, I have time to spend. I'll do this off the top of my head:
  Climate: Trump tries to back out of climate agreements and rolls back several environmental and corporate regulations. I'm not very well-versed here but this was a regular thing when he was president. Biden's admin I believe passed some climate policy as well.
  Income Inequality: Democrats propose higher taxes on the rich and more social program spending. Repubs do not. In fact iirc they tried to lower taxes on the rich again. Dems have tried out UBI and other experiments in some cities. Dems are more pro-union than repubs. Dems funded the IRS to catch millionaires dodging taxes.
  Homelessness Rates: Pretty even. Democrat cities tend to be nicer to them but don't solve the systemic issues.
  Hunger Rates: Dems have regularly tried to improve the school lunch programs and make them cost less or be free. Repubs do not. Adult hunger rates idk.
  Corporate Greed: When the government is under democratic control we spend more on the IRS, anti-monopoly measures, government regulation in general, etc. The antidote to corporate greed is regulation.
  Military: About the same
  Immigration Reform: Trump is literally threatening to deport american citizens and plans to round up all the illegal immigrants the moment he gets into office. He allowed ICE to enter any home within 100 miles of the border. His literal main selling point is that he hates immigrants and things the dems are letting too many in.
  Prisons: About the same. Prison system sucks
  Genocide: Way more equal than it should be, but slight dem edge as I've talked about earlier. That edge doesn't matter a lot.
  The dems have done more than promise. They've significantly helped out poorer americans with debt relief, regulations, and enforcement on corporations.
  
  It seems like the problem is you treat Dem promises the same as actual results. Particularly on climate and immigration, you’re way off- the Biden admin broke records on both of those with deportations and fossil fuel extractions far, far higher than Trump’s.

Yep. The libs here just don't have a clue. Probably because they only want idealism, when they should study materialism and evolutionary game theory. Or human nature in general.