We coulda had Bernie...
We coulda had Bernie...
When you compare Biden to Trump vs. the effects on the Palestinians, were Trump president again, he would not just help the Israelis exterminate the Palestinians, but encourage them to do so quickly- as he's already told Bibi to "finish it". So your dichotomy is more than a bit disingenuous .
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If our only standard is not a Republican, then everytime Republicans lower their standards, they lower the only other option's standards too.
It's not fucking sustainable.
You know I hear people say this and and yet the Democratic Party is further to the left than it was under Bill Clinton. So how does it follow? I mean I hear people say stuff like we keep moving further to the right and the Republicans certainly are, but I see a Democratic party that's for gay rights and that didn't use to exist. I see a Democratic Party that's that's talking about higher taxes on the wealthy and trade regulations and consumer protection Acts. None of that was true in the '90s. In the 90s the Democrats said the era of big government is over. Now Democrats are supporting good government policies. We can certainly support better government policies, and I personally would like to see them go much further , but I can't see a scenario in which the Democratic party isn't further left than they were.
Givesomefuck's only reason for posting is to complain. They have no viable solutions when asked. They want the world to be their idea of perfect tomorrow. Good incremental change just won't cut it. They're the exact kind of impotent leftist meme'd on that never accomplishes anything they claim to support. If they'd get off the internet and do something the world could change some. But that requires effort and likely compromise.
I know this because I was that same person at a time. I can see my younger self in their language and angst. Then I started actually volunteering to help. Mainly homeless organizations and people with disabilities. And it changed my life. I now focus on what I can do next vs whining about why the world hasn't changed for me. On making direct impact in people's lives vs hoping someone else comes along with a magic wand. While we're all whining online, the evil we're concerned about isn't. All it takes for evil to succeed is good to sit by and watch.
So I urge anyone with me this far to consider 1) Not giving attention to accounts like givesomefucks. Better to ignore them than get into a bad faith argument because they're only here to complain. 2) Getting involved locally in something. It's not as hard as you think and the impact is noticed quickly. Plus it's a much better use of your time than doom scrolling and whining.
The democratic party didn't even universally support abortion rights not that long ago.
This. This all day long.
This does not logically follow.
It really does though..
This is a proposed political idea. It doesn't make it true and doesn't make the statement that are options are reduced unless we all allow it to be true.
If the Republican decide to burn all gay people, one cannot claim to be a democrat because they simply want to gas them all.
We decide where the line is drawn. Ignore the propaganda that tells us we have no control over the process. That apathy is how the window shifts, not because the republicans shift.
The Overton window is a way of framing change in the baseline ideology of a population. It is hardly a “law” or dogma of any kind. On its own it’s meaningless, you can’t just couch an argument in “…because of the Overton window.” It’s also got its valid detractors like broken window theory and such.
Lol, I wasn't making an argument that anything is "because of the Overton window", the OP of this thread is literally describing how the Overton window works. You, and that other person not liking or understanding it, doesn't change that, nor the fact that what op described is demonstrably happening in politics right in front of your fucking eyes, and only "doesn't follow logic" if you're aggressively wilfully ignorant.
Yikes I think you’re a little too riled up for this conversation. Have a good one dude.
Not in terms of pure logic but definitely in practical terms. You don't get far in humanities if you only follow pure logic.
So is societal which means it's not a person or group but all of us. It isn't just this one thing everyone on the left likes to point out as if that absolves them from having any personal responsibility in the matter.
The concept causes itself to exist by acceptance that it is inevitable.
Voting the lesser evil still leads to evil in the long run.
You got a practical alternative you'd like to share with the class?
Vote in your local elections, and support (or directly work to pass) election reform laws, particularly related to ditching the electoral college.
Not necessarily saying it's the alternative, but it's a start and local elections have larger personal impact most of the time.
I agree with all of this, but it's not an alternative, it's just an additional vector of action. My question is about alternatives to Biden for president in this election.
Well, that's up to the DNC. They could put almost any other prominent dem and they'd probably beat Trump. The DNC also has the ability to change the candidate after the election but before the electoral ballots are cast, at least as far as I understand their rules.
Trust, I understand your point. The primaries are over, and that's where the different candidate should have been chosen. But unfortunately, the whole not knowing any viable alternatives line of thinking is what got the DNC into this mess in the first place.
Yeah, I think any other Dem candidate is a gamble: you lose out on the significant incumbent boost, you only have 4 months to campaign if you start now, and you risk losing momentum on the moderate vote. This isn't an election I want to gamble with, especially with the recent SCOTUS ruling. Everything said and done, I don't think the benefits outweigh the risks.
November 6th is when we should start pushing for significant changes. 11th hour fuckery isn't going to help this cycle.
Yeah, I think any other Dem candidate is a gamble: you lose out on the significant incumbent boost
Except Biden has a 37% approval rating...
That's Jimmy Carter level...
Do you know what happened with Jimmy Carter's second term?
An incumbency only translates to a boost, when being the incumbent is a positive thing.
2/3s of voters don't think Biden is a good president. 56% think he is a bad one.
We can't afford to hope enough people hold their nose for him.
This is bigger than any one person, even Joe Biden
But all the people whining about gEnOciDe jOe are only upset because its and election year. They disappear after November and don’t show up again until 4 years later.
Trump used Palestinian as a slur & they are laughing with him. Not sure how serious anyone is supposed to take them.
Well, they’re serious about urging people to not vote against MAGA, so…. There’s that.
socialism
I'm all for socialism long term solution. I'm confused as to how that is an alternative to voting against the present greatest threat to socialism that can be voted against. What is the material implementation of "socialism" which provides a timely alternative to that action?
op commenter was talking about a long term solution.
socialism begins with the organization of the working class. this organization can be used to press your boss and the government in an effective way in the short term.
this 'pressure' can look like a strike, but its not limited to.
Again, actions I support. These actions, however, are not mutually exclusive to voting in elections for the lesser evil. In fact, these actions are more substantially suppressed under the greater evil. The rational action then is to use all avenues available to oneself, including but not limited to voting for whichever of the two dominant parties is less detrimental to action on other avenues.
One of the two dominant parties is objectively worse for the organization of the working class. Vote for the less worse party, while you organize and pressure the powers that be.
are not mutually exclusive to voting in elections for the lesser evil
I agree with that. This case though, presents two very evil options. You guys have been legalizing child labour again, building a theocracy and doing an ethnic cleansing in the middle east under the supposed lesser evil. They are accelerating fascism regardless of who wins, vote if you will but other avenues must be pursued if you are to keep your thin veil of civility.
Who is "you guys"? What point are you trying to make with this both-sides stuff? Child labor and theocracy are exclusively being pushed by the Republicans, no Democrats are doing that. Even in the middle east, Democrats are tiptoeing through a nasty web of geopolitics, while it's the Republicans who want to glass Palestine. Neo-Libs have a lot of problems, but it's simply deranged to imply they're anywhere near as evil as MAGA.
geopolitics is no excuse for the things being perpetrated inside but especially outside the us, currently by democrats. if the us made a bad judgment and found itself losing the situation, financing a literal genocide to avoid losing is not a justifiable thing to do here.
It seems like you're deliberately diverting away from my point: both sides are bad, but one is orders of magnitude worse than the other. Quashing voter turnout with this doomer rhetoric helps the worse one win. Democrats having problems doesn't stop Republican problems from being an existential threat to the future of our democracy, and any chance of leftward progress. You do realize this, right?
When the choice is between the lesser evil, and losing our democracy, having our LGBTQ+ friends and family lose their rights to exist and feel good in their own skin, our sisters, mothers, and daughters losing their body autonomy…
I’ll take the lesser evil- ANY FUCKING DAY YOU ASK.
But NOW we'll start organizing... more than we had been previously! I swear we won't declare victory and do basically nothing political at all for the next 4 years.
And the short run.