5d ago

dead plants rule

85 comments

I hate to say it, but now isn't the only time it's a problem.
This whole "you just need to practice more CBT skills" has been bullshit for like twenty fucking years or more.
I can "check the facts" all I want, if the facts are that things are irreparably and totally fucked and that this irreparability is hurting me directly I can't "happy thoughts" my fucking way out of it.
I'm really tired of being told "you can't change other people, so you need to work on yourself" when other people are allowed to be giant assholes their whole lives who never have to put one ounce of work into themselves and it's me and everyone else who is a halfway decent person who has to spend their lives fucking working on ourselves.
The system is god damned broken and has been god damned broken when we practically reward the worst of us with never having to try to do better while telling the best of us that we just have to do better.
I'm really, really over it.
- There are many, many reasons to be upset about the state of the world, but the purpose of CBT is similar to the purpose of stoicism. It is not meant to teach someone how to interface with society, but with themselves. Managing one's emotional state by managing their cognitive state. This is a valuable skill to have even if in the midst of the apocalypse.
  Even if you can change other people, generally speaking you can't do it right here right now, so CBT is best served to interrupt or redirect cyclical thought processes that can't actually motivate someone toward any positive outcome.
  Having the thought - "This is fucked and I'm going to do X, Y, and Z" - is healthy.
  Having the thought - "this is fucked this is fucked this is fucked this is fucked this is fucked" - on repeat in your head when you can't currently do X, Y, or Z, is not. CBT is meant to help someone break out of the latter, not the former.
  
  There are many, many reasons to be upset about the state of the world, but the purpose of CBT is similar to the purpose of stoicism. It is not meant to teach someone how to interface with society, but with themselves.
  Nobody cares for the most part about the intended purpose at the end of the day, they care about the actual impact which is that CBT is a convenient framing to exclude the non-individualist reasons people are miserable.
  
  CBT is a convenient framing to exclude the non-individualist reasons people are miserable.
  The rest of my comment addresses this - again, this isn't how CBT works. CBT does not say "if you constantly feel bad, it's your fault, not society's".
  It's just a strategy to manage unproductive and unhealthy negative thoughts, not negative thoughts in general. It's totally healthy to feel anger, grief, sadness, etc in response to all types of things. If someone is telling you otherwise, they're not performing CBT.
- Overthrowing capitalism is a pretty effective coping mechanism from what I hear.
  
  Isnt that almost impossible? I wonder how many lotteries you would have to win in a row to be as lucky as you would need to convince billions of people capitalism may be worse than another system and to do something about it
  
  you dont have to convince people based on dry theory. revolution does not necessairily mean a momentary violent insurection that overthrows what was. a revolution can be the process in which you create the structures you wish to see in the future, in the here and now. you then convince people by showing them first hand that it works and that it benefits them.
  here is a great video on how to construct the revolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9K6ISx8QEQ
  it has a bit of a slow start, and feels academic but its very very insightful. absolute recomendation.
  
  Big recommend on that video and Anark's whole channel.
  This is a short clip he put out recently that makes a really good case for building the new world by fixing today's problems, which makes life better now, which is something people seem to miss.
  Like we're not just rolling the dice that what we do now might pay off for future generations. We're not just "planting trees in whose shade we will never sit", we are planting seeds we can reap soon, because we need to eat, so we're solving that problem.
  And satisfyingly, this brings us full-circle to addressing the point of the original post.
  
  I think we just need a bunch of guillotines.
  
  I think some of us could do with both. Too bad the only psych who spoke to the heart of trauma was private. O well
- CBT was designed for people who had severe behavioral issues.
  The idea that it should be done by everyone is because extracting profit by selling cookie cutter solutions is the perversion of capitalism.
- What you need to realize though is that you can only affect so much. Mostly if you need help you should help yourself first. Then if you're happy and capable, you need to help others. Not the other way around. So get with it and don't hang yourself up on "shit is fucked". It is, but it has been worse and it also can get worse. But that doesn't really matter for now, help yourself first if you need to.
  Like ofc it's not wrong to also help others.
  The situation is hopeless and has always been. But that's not as bad as it sounds and it frees you and me from the burden of the world. Do what you can, that's enough.
  I can highly recommend this video for reflecting on hopeless thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJaE_BvLK6U
  
  I'm not having hopeless thoughts.
  I'm having issues with CBT being used as a way to teach people learned helplessness where "you can't affect other people." Because, actually, society in aggregate (often called governance) can totally influence, affect, and change other people. We seemingly have given up on holding people who break the social contract accountable for anything while forcing those who do uphold the social contract accountable for everything. Fascism is the end-stage manifestation of that.
  In my experience, in practice, it does more to teach people they can't affect change more than it teaches them they can. It teaches them to be helpless on purpose.
  
  This isn’t what cbt is
  Cbt is an extension of equanimity, learning ways to control your emotional response to things. You don’t deny your emotional response, but you moderate it
  This is advantageous because what’s more effective? Dwelling in rumination and suffering? Or acknowledging that we are angry and frustrated and moving forward to something actionable when that is possible and moving on with our lives when it is not? This is where we get into more DBT skills and stuff like radical acceptance but it’s similar
  This is what happens with these things in the modern context though. They get displayed at surface value with pop psychology social media bullshit and perverted. Then stoicism becomes “just deny your feelings” by right wing dipshits who have never read meditations when it is also about allowing yourself to feel and express feelings but not letting them control you through a practice of reflection.
  CBT is essentially just an update of philosophy like this and Buddhism for the modern context with more explicit guidance and some neurology thrown in.
  “You can’t affect other people” is incorrect as you say. While we do have to concede that other people’s willingness to change their behavior and perspective is ultimately up to them we can still advocate and influence. At the same time we can recognize that this process can be draining and harmful to ourselves and at a certain point maybe we need to take a step back. You can’t save fix a house with a rotting foundation.
  Bad implementation doesn’t make CBT bad.
  
  Bad implementation doesn’t make CBT bad
  Well see here is the thing, it does when it becomes a key rhetorical tool the ruling class uses to brutalize poor and working class en masse and doctors shrug and say with a resigned smile "well that is politics, we help individuals with their health, nothing we can do about that!".
  
  That doesn’t even make sense?
  You are talking maybe about capitalism informing psychotherapy away from solution oriented therapies because they are too costly and impractical and that is fucked up but that has nothing to do with cbt?
  Or maybe something else, clarify?
  
  Just a heads up I won't be offering any back and forth here, too busy.
  But for anyone reading, CBT is not what is being described here. CBT / DBT are effective and should still be explored as viable options.
  
  It was a long time ago and only briefly, but I agree this does not sound at all like what I recall from a CBT session.
  
  I don't have any experience with CBT, isn't it mostly for dealing with specific traumata?
  
  Mostly if you need help you should help yourself first. Then if you’re happy and capable, you need to help others. Not the other way around
  I think you're not getting what they're saying. Of course you can only work on yourself, but therapy doesn't exist in a vacuum and frequently you're just learning coping mechanisms for the status quo. Which is frequently good, being able to cope with society and remain functional is good, but people often have coping as the goal instead of merely being a step.
  This person wants to change the system so coping mechanisms aren't necessary to deal with society
  
  Of course you can only work on yourself, but therapy doesn’t exist in a vacuum and frequently you’re just learning coping mechanisms for the status quo.
  I doubt this is true. This feels like something that I would have told myself before therapy so I wouldn't have to deal with myself
  
  I think you might be projecting a little.
  
  It's just not my experience.

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