How are slavery reparations fair?
How are slavery reparations fair?
This relates to the BBC article [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66596790] which states "the UK should pay $24tn (£18.8tn) for its slavery involvement in 14 countries".
The UK abolished slavery in 1833. That's 190 years ago. So nobody alive today has a slave, and nobody alive today was a slave.
Dividing £18tn by the number of UK taxpayers (31.6m) gives £569 each. Why do I, who have never owned a slave, have to give £569 to someone who similarly is not a slave?
When I've paid my £569 is that the end of the matter forever or will it just open the floodgates of other similar claims?
Isn't this just a country that isn't doing too well, looking at the UK doing reasonably well (cost of living crisis excluded of course), and saying "oh there's this historical thing that affects nobody alive today but you still have to give us trillions of Sterling"?
Shouldn't payment of reparations be limited to those who still benefit from the slave trade today, and paid to those who still suffer from it?
(Please don't flame me. This is NSQ. I genuinely don't know why this is something I should have to pay. I agree slavery is terrible and condemn it in all its forms, and we were right to abolish it.)
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Nations that were the source of slaves remain on the whole impoverished and underdeveloped.
Nations that were slavers still remain on the whole wealthy and highly developed.
This is not a coincidence, and there is a reasonable case to be made for reparations on these grounds.
The UKs position today is arguably due more to leading the Industrial Revolution and that was the main factor in the decay of slavery, so you need to balance historic grievances with development i.e. "what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Is it possible that other factors led to the countries being wealthy or impoverished, and this allowed the wealthy to colonise or take the impoverished as slaves?
For example?
The industrial revolution for one.
I recommend the book "Guns, germs, and steel" if you're interested. I'm not sure it covers this specifically, but it does cover in depth the reasons for different areas of the world being more of less wealthy (it has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with the geographic area, climate, natural resources including flora and fauna, and proximity to other populations).It's an interesting read, even if a bit heavy.Edit: it turns out the book is a bit contentious: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/historians_views/#wiki_historians.27_views_of_jared_diamond.27s_.22guns.2C_germs.2C_and_steel.22
I read it 10+ years ago. As I recall, its main point had to do with differences between Old World and New World populations.
Since Africa falls into the Old World along with Europe, I don't think the book actually supports any conclusions about this topic.
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Yes, and even accounting for those, wealthy countries that took slaves still hold an enormous amount of responsibility for what they did
The original OP argument is that those captors or slaves don't exist anymore. Even the countries barely exist. Is this a matter of descendants being responsible for their ancestors crimes?
I think there's a strong feedback loop argument here but I'm not sure that's the point you're making.
Do descendants have the same responsibility as their ancestors who actually owned slaves? No. But do they bear some ongoing responsibility as a benefactor of a system that was built around their ancestors owning slaves? Yeah they do.
All of this is incredibly messy, but approaching it at a governmental level is definitely something I support, because slavery was sanctioned and even encouraged by the government we're talking about, which has existed continuously
That's the feedback loop argument, right?
Some countries collonised others: crime of ancestor
But those countries used slaves and stole resources, making those countries wealthier. That wealth allowed them to develop better technologies, making them even wealthier.
So the argument is that while the original crime is not the responsibility of those alive today, the proceeds of crime should not be kept - they should be returned. In this case the proceeds are wealth, so a monetary reparation is appropriate.
Is my train of thought right? Because it seems to make sense to me.
Pretty much my take.
OPs position is based on the idea that the reparations are punitive, which they are not.
No one alive in England today was engaged in slaving, but everyone is the beneficiary of the practice.
This is true. Also, remember that some African kingdoms were the sellers of slaves. Modern countries there are not direct analogs, and they don't really have any money, but they deserve some of the blame.
Yes, but the few dollars per slave that a trader would have received is nothing in comparison to the value a slave would generate through their lifetime.
Compensation is based on damages, not on how much money the crime made. People routinely owe damages for assault or vandalism that makes them no money.
You may have misunderstood me. By removing someone from their home nation, the damages would be the value they would have produced in their home nation.
Disclaimer that I'm not English and don't particularly have a dog in this fight, and my opinions are a little mixed. On the one hand, I agree on the morality there, a lot of people were damaged in the very long term by slavery. But on the other, even if you can say that it's an act to attempt to return the wealth to the wronged people, that doesn't mean the wealth has simply been sitting there for nearly 200 years, waiting for return. That money has to come out of some budget, somewhere.
So where are they going to pull 18 trillion to give reparations from? Certainly, cuts will need to be made somewhere to make it happen, and often, those cuts are usually made along the lines of political agendas rather than things that are objectively bloated.
But the ability to pay reparations isn't really considered in deciding whether reparations should be made.
You're right that the money isn't just sitting there, it's embedded in the development of the nation.
Watch a video tour of the tourist sites of London. Or look what is in the imperial museum. Or the Victoria and Albert museum. The looted wealth of of their genocidal empire is still celebrated as a national treasure. India still has not recovered from British occupation, which only officially ended 75 years ago. And that’s like 20% of the entire current human population.
My comment is not about the validity of reparations. It was a direct reply to the one above it, which seemed to imply that reparations are because of the actions of past people, when in my view it's about the proceeds of the crimes rather than the crimes themselves.
I see, but at the same time, can those concepts really be separated? Without the crime there are no proceeds and without the proceeds what was the point of the crime?
I think they can and should be separated.
If they are not, then you are saying that you are making people responsible for a crime that was committed well before they were born.
By separating the crime from the proceeds, you can justify why reparations should be paid, without the defense of the crime being committed by someone else.
Guns?
Germs.
Yes, definitely. But why they had guns is also another question. I recommend the book "Gun, germs, and steel" as a great look into how and why different populations formed as they did.Edit: it turns out the book is a bit contentious: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/historians_views/#wiki_historians.27_views_of_jared_diamond.27s_.22guns.2C_germs.2C_and_steel.22
Exactly. If anything, this amount of money is way too small.
Occasionally we read a news story about someone who escaped a maniac that kept them locked up for years, forcing them to work and do depraved things for little or no pay. We rightfully think this is terrible and the criminal is inhuman.
Slavery was millions of people in that situation for their entire lives. Whole economies were based on this genocide. We put Nazis to death for genocide. We put other leader on trial for similar crimes. Paying this tiny fine is the least the British (and other European governments) can do. The amount they really owe would bankrupt them.
What amount of money would you exchange for measurably worse lives (education, health, jobs) for you, your family, and everyone who looks like you for generations?
there is a reasonable case to be made for reparations on these grounds.
What's the reasonable case
That the wealth they still enjoy was largely stolen. Especially when you add colonialism.
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Isn't that basically saying "might makes right"?
This is so false, slavery was wide practice in Africa already, the "slaving countrys" just bought them for the most part...
Yeah it existed as a practice. The big slave markets and infrastructure was not there until the North American slave trade opened up.
Simply not correct at all. Look up the trans Saharan slave trade. It was absolutely enormous business before the Portuguese sailed down the West Coast of Africa.
Lol why is that comment you're replying to so upvoted, people just like what they want to hear.
Uhh okay. You're talking about dozens or hundred people or so at a time, thousands of people per year, mostly prisoners of war, traded domestically, deported over a period of 1,700 years.
And it still not half as many slaves as were deported across the Atlantic in only 350 years. Millions of slaves died on the voyage. They built vast trading routes and employed slavers as a business model, building customized ships to transport 600 slaves at a time.
Apples and oranges.
You have a profound misunderstanding of the trans Saharan slave trade. Over centuries it resulted in millions of West African slaves being transported into and through the Arab world. This may not even have been the most significant source of slaves out of Africa during the pre-European colonial period. It is highly likely that more slaves came from Central and East Africa via Zanzibar. Millions upon millions of slaves being extracted from Africa before the Portuguese arrived. I'm not saying that what Europe did was even remotely reasonable. Just understand that we didn't invent slavery, we didn't start up slavery in Africa out of nowhere. It doesn't excuse us. But we're not uniquely evil either.
I don't see the misunderstanding.
And? Thats not exactly question...
I can see how if you're stuck in a cookie jar looking out your perspective could be distorted
Between 1500 and 1865, more than 80% of enslaved Africans were shipped to the Americas by European slave traders.
I've never seen an exact number ascribed to it, any chance you have a source?
Uh... Yes Traders. They bought them in Africa and shipped them to America.
What are you trying to say?
He's saying he's a bigot for anyone who's listening
Im saying fuck the idea of paying some country reparations for such things that happened. Everyone involved is dead.
Not at all. There are impacts passed down through generations, which is why we see race-based wealth gaps.
Romans had Germanics as slave yet Italy nowadays is a lot less successful than Germany...
Where is that wealth? Where is the poor Germans (and their decents)?
There has been so much slavery through out history and there still is, only a minority of slaves in total was black or from Africa.
Im absolutely against paying any "repetitions" as its disgustingly disrespectful to again put a price tag on people in one way or another, we (Europeans) already do much for development globally, this, just like "sending back" artifacts, is just idiotic and absolutely pointless. Where does the money/artifacts go? Exactly, into the hands of corrupt Politicians, Cartels and Warlords. Its unacceptable.
The trans-Atlantic slave trade was alive and well within the past 200 years. I'm 40, and my grandmother literally coexisted with people who had been slaves in the US when she was young. You're comparing this to ancient Rome??
If you steal something, it should be sent back. It doesn't matter whom it goes to.
What do you think an enormous demand for slaves, as the colonial nations building plantations and mines in the americas, does to a the supply of slaves? Supply and demand, friend. It’s not as if all the enslaved people exported to the Americas were already in circulation when the europeans came knocking
At that point the people there can't put the blame on the buyer.
If Nescle kills children and steals water, but you buy it its not you doing the bad thing, you "just" support it.
I can't think of a single ethical framework that considers having someone else do your dirty work as permissible. If you have zero agency, sure. If you have nearly all the agency, like the colonial powers, no. The colonial powers threatened to topple governments that restricted slave trade, like the Kongo.
I've never said that it was a good or acceptable thing, im just very very opposed to the idea of reparations for such things.
Clearly. No matter the argument, you're against reparations. That's not because you have drawn a logical conclusion. You just believe it.
I have a reason. Just read the other comments, its explained there. And yes i am in general in disfavor of repetitions for most things. Money can't buy you free from historically moral debt.
What about historically economic debt?
"I'm not saying it's ok, I'm just saying you should never have to take any responsibility for it"
That's what you just said. Jackass.
What "responsibility" they are all dead! Guilt is not hereditary!
Sorry, I'm not continuing to discuss this with an open racist. I'll just block you. Have a shitty day.
Ah yes Racism. Get fucked.
This argument is based on the idea that buying ill-gotten water is equivalent to buying people
What's your point?
"I'm going to take these slaves and exploit them because if I don't someone else will"
I'm not sure if you are an ignorant apologist or outright racist but it feels important to comment on this given the number of uovotes this post is receiving. From an article from Slate I will link below:
"But, as historian Marcus Rediker writes, the “ancient and widely accepted institution” of enslavement in Africa was exacerbated by the European presence. Yes, European slave traders entered “preexisting circuits of exchange” when they arrived in the 16th century. But European demand changed the shape of this market, strengthening enslavers and ensuring that more and more people would be carried away. “[European] slave-ship captains wanted to deal with ruling groups and strong leaders, people who could command labor resources and deliver the ‘goods,’ ” Rediker writes, and European money and technology further empowered those who were already dominant, encouraging them to enslave greater numbers. Both the social structures and infrastructure that enabled African systems of enslavement were strengthened by the transatlantic slave trade.
AdvertisementBottom line: Why should this matter? This is a classic “two wrongs make a right” ethical proposition. Even if Africans (or Arabs, or Jews) colluded in the slave trade, should white Americans be entitled to do whatever they pleased with the people who were unlucky enough to fall victim?"
Nope, they deliberately made it so that the populations of African countries can easily be enslaved.