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Always remember that the patriarchy harms everyone
An asshole is an asshole is an asshole, don't you dare act like it's not these women's fault if they have no compassion.
Saying something is the result of patriarchy doesn't absolve anybody (including women) of the responsibility for fixing it.
It's not the result of patriarchy, is the result of them being bad people. They would still exist under a matriarchy or in an equal society.
“patriarchy” in this context means something other than you think, I.e. it means a system that upholds gender roles that benefit a (majority male) ruler class, e.g. by encouraging worker class men to go to war for their benefit, worker class women to be caretakers, and so on.
The counterpart to this definition of “patriarchy” is a society with no stratified gender roles, not “matriarchy”.
This is exactly why its such a bad word to use to describe this, it automatically puts people on the defensive and needs to be explained to people that it doesn't mean what the word means (rule of the fathers).
No, that's the reactionary propaganda doing that.
Everybody living in this world should be aware that words have context and don't always literally mean what their parts mean. And even then “patriarchy” is one of the more literal ones: it comes from “pater”/father in the same vein as “paternalistic”, with the same connotation of overbearing-yet-out-of-touch.
So just from word meaning that clearly doesn't mean all men, and obviously it also doesn't refer to literal fathers either.
Probably far worse actually.
I never claimed it wasn't. Shitty people are going to be shitty but they feel comfortable being shitty in the way that they are, in public, because the patriarchy has made that normal. I never excused her behavior, I identified it as being connected to a much broader sociological issue.
Hey comrade, I am seriously glad that comment like yours are starting to not be accepted anymore.
I somehow agree with you, the patriarchy harms everyone. But it does not help anyone to slap it in the face of men who are suffering, and also I disagree that a faceless concept has more responsibility than the people pushing it forward.
Honestly, 'patriarchy' is a terrible term that leads to so much confusion. Too many people use it as 'blame men' and forget that it's supposed to be about men being culturally cast as perfect leaders and therefore punished for not meeting those impossible standards.
I have high hopes that the spreading acceptance of transfolk will start to break down the weird gender roles we've got, and maybe we can talk about some of this stuff more directly.
Thank you for pointing out this. I hat the term 'patriarchy'. I can see the people here using this term are trying to make a point. But it seems to me, that the wording 'patriarchy' hints towards to that ultimately men are to blame. It is also unnerving that feminism tends to excuse problems that women really have is systemic, while trouble that men have is caused by individually shitty behaviour.
I very much would like a society, where every human regardless of gender is being met with the same empathy.
You know, I hadn't really thought about the benefit that LGBTQ+ acceptance plays in this.
Of everyone who has been so supportive of me, it's been my queer and non-binary friends.
I am a straight white male with money. While it upsets me to see women saying stuff like this post, I also know that I am not going to blame the women perpetuating the problem, because they themselves are victims of toxic masculinity and established gender norms.
I have a lot of queer friends (being pansexual myself) and I love the general awareness of mental health at least within my social circle (mainly well educated people throughout their 20s). For example it’s incredibly refreshing not to have to make excuses if you don’t feel like being around people that day, instead just being able to say just that without judgement.
Men =/= the patriarchy. Tell a friend.
Yeah this comment section has not brought me hope. I'll admit that this may not have been the best place and time for this conversation but it needs to be spoken of, especially to the people who want to hear it least. I need these people to understand that societal issues cannot be solved at an individual level. You cannot simply be angry at a woman for being cold and heartless. This helps no one. The people who perpetuate patriarchal society won't stop doing it because we get mad at them. They must be confronted about their behavior first and foremost with an understanding of the material conditions that drive them.
Yes, the perpetrators of patriarchy are responsible for its continuity but they do not realize this. They do not recognize the very existence of a patriarchy and this is why the world struggles to fight it. Often the biggest perpetuators of patriarchy are the most harmed by it and they don't even know. They are as much victims as they are villains. How can we call them responsible on an individual level when patriarchy is the only thing they have ever known?
Where do you draw the line? Where do you stop blaming patriarchy and start blaming the people who have a fucked up sense of right vs wrong?
A man that screams at his wife when he's angry, that's patriarchy or that's on them?
A man that quietly belittles his wife?
A woman that does these things to her husband?
If there's physical violence I'm sure you won't repeat your previous message and say that they're victims as well.
I don't understand why it cannot be both? Yeah these people are responsible for their actions and should be confronted on it on an individual basis but their actions are also influenced by the society in which they live. We need to confront and discuss that too.
You cannot simply be angry at a woman for being cold and heartless.
Yes, we can. Patriarchy or not, there are some awful people and behaviours being described in these comments. And while the "patriarchy" no doubt plays a role in enabling that, people also need to take ownership of their behaviour.
I’ll admit that this may not have been the best place and time for this conversation but it needs to be spoken of,
Hear me out here, but maybe if it's "not the best place and time for this conversation" don't have it.
especially to the people who want to hear it least.
Disgusting.
Look you're spreading a mythologized patriarchy-as-Satan theology.
You may not want to hear it, but just shut up about feminism when men's issues come up, and listen.
How can we call them responsible on an individual level when patriarchy is the only thing they have ever known?
This is such an extreme definition of total patriarchy that it's an agency-robbing mythos. "What if every bad thing was caused by a concept?" isn't a coherent or practical worldview.
Don't believe in agency-robbing mythos. Don't spread them, because somewhere in there you're just giving yourself permission to lecture other people against their will at a time and place in which it is not appropriate for you to do so.
Incedible how unserious you are
It's terrible to see. It's another feature of the patriarchy and toxic masculinity - blaming the victims. It's why it has been going on for so long.
In a similar vein: Why do women not report rape? This is why. Because even women have been so oppressed by the system that they will even question "if they were asking for it."
What you're doing is the mirror of MRAs who pretend feminism means 'women uber alles.'
You can stop.
Some women would be shit to men and women and fucking anyone and everyone even if we lived in a matriarchy. Just like some men are shit to everyone and some men and women are nice with everyoneat.
Assholes are assholes, that's it.
I never advocated for a matriarchy. People will continue to be shitty to eachother but the deconstruction of gender based discrimination and violence would benefit us all. In order to do that we must recognize that what holds us back from this is patriarchy.
My point still stands, no matter if there's discrimination or not, some people will continue being shit to others and pretending they're shit because of the system we live in is removing all their agency. "It's ok if you're a bad person, it's just because [insert reason that is out of their power]."
I never said it was ok and I never denied their agency
Yes. It is their fault that they're supporting the patriarchy.
Stop deflecting blame from shitty women. There are shitty women who do shitty things and "the patriarchy" does not excuse their behavior.
Stop worshiping the patriarchy. The patriarchy is not God. The patriarchy is not to blame for every shitty thing a shitty woman does.
Sometimes women are shitty and you make the problem worse by telling everyone it's not their fault because the patriarchy is God in your idiot doctrine.
Edit: I'm not saying the patriarchy isn't real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you're just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.
Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they're taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn't a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.
The patriarchy isn't "men are harming people all by themselves." It's the gender roles and gender hierarchy that both men and women perpetuate.
I have to push back here and say that I think that the "emotions are feminine" explanation doesn't give the whole picture. There's also instrumentalization of men.
We're all familiar with objectification, the tendency of (some) men to ignore women's agency, and treat them as objects for their own use. On the flip side, in my experience, (some) women instrumentalize men. That is, treat men as agents to be used as tools to achieve their own goals. As a result, I think that (some) women use men as a bulwark against the stresses and existential terror of human existence, or sometimes even literally, like a bodyguard, or the one who has to deal with the spider in the house.
You want your vacuum cleaner to suck up dirt when you pull it out of the closet, and then disappear quietly back in there once the job is done. You don't want to have to change the bag, and clean the motor, and replace the belt every time. More metaphorically, you don't want to find out that your emotional ramparts against a scary world are built on sand, and that's what kind of happens when (some) women find out that their partner has fears and weaknesses, too.
I've heard the same story many, many times from men whose partners begged them to open up emotionally, only to flee once they found out that those emotions included fears and self-doubt. It doesn't make sense that they'd do the first part, if emotions were unattractive, per se.
(Edit: Missing word.)
I think you're quite correct in this analysis as well. Historically, women have often had to depend on a husband for financial security and to be this instrument of protection. This archetype of the provider and protector husband is still baked into our patriarchal culture and leads women who don't deconstruct this attitude to treat their male partners as you describe, and men in straight marriages to feel this burden alone. I've seen it often lead to insecurity and self doubt among husbands who feel they can't live up to this impossible expectation, who also for the reasons widely discussed in this thread don't feel able to express this insecurity and doubt, or are punished for doing so because it goes against their culturally-prescribed gender role of the strong male protector.
It could also be because they view their husband/partner as a means to an end, rather than a person with feelings.
At some point, the individual needs to take responsibility for their actions, society is made up of individuals after all.
If patriarchy is the cause of literally everything in gender interaction, it's not very useful as a concept.
That's like saying the road is the cause of all car crashes.
The road is the context in which all (mostly all) crashes occur, its contours or grading maybe contributed to the crash, but it almost never would be the sole cause.
Most people who just wave their hands and say "patriarchy" are parrots who just know they get a cracker when they say the line. It's resulted in trash discourse.
It's resulted in people just tuning out when they hear the word, too.
Kinda sucks, because it's a really useful foundation to talk about society through a certain lens. It'd be hard to talk about traffic if I didn't understand what a road was.
But, I admit, many people who pipe up with "patriarchy" don't really want to talk any farther, and that does make dealing with those people pretty frustrating. Like if a cop showed up at every crash and excitedly pointed out the existence of a road and then left.
I am biased because I own (small) parrots who genuinely love crackers, and any reference to that cute behavior is positive for me. But I believe this would be a great metaphor even if I weren't biased in favor of parrots.
It's just the broad description of the gender roles/hierarchy present in our society. Being aware of them and how they negatively impact gender interaction seems fairly useful to me. Usually it's helpful to understand the current structure of something and how that's causing problems to make any meaningful and positive changes.
On the contrary, the term is performing exactly as designed - blame men for men being shitty (toxic masculinity), and blame men for women being shitty too (internalized misogyny).
How is "women are also perpetuating and engaging in the patriarchy, this is a problem" blaming it on men? "The Patriarchy" is not blaming stuff on men, it's a descriptor of the gender-roles-system we live in and people of all genders can be perpetuators of its toxic aspects.
Because "patriarchy" isn't just a neutral, ivory-tower descriptor of a system of gender roles. Just look at Twitter, or Reddit - the number of feminists using the word patriarchy on a daily basis to blame men far outnumber the tiny number of academic feminists that (supposedly) use the term without misandrist intent. Words' meanings are determined by their use, and going by its use, "patriarchy" is a misandrist term that is used to blame men for all of society's ills, which has resulted in demonstrable negative societal outcomes for men and boys. It's naive or disingenuous to act otherwise.
And even among more academic feminist circles, it's naive to think the term "patriarchy" isn't being used in a misandrist way by a significant percentage of feminists - radical feminism, just to target the low-hanging fruit, is entirely organized around mistaken and harmful ideas of "male supremacy", and as a result most of feminism's terminology is also entirely organized around men being the oppressor, and women being the oppressed.
This is where we get the real brilliance of feminist thought: "academic", "neutral" terms like "toxic masculinity" and "internalized misogyny" ensure that all discourse about society's ills are entirely framed around oppressor/oppressed language (where, of course, men are always the oppressors and women are always the oppressed), which, as discussed above, ensures that the public at large will blame men for literally anything that goes wrong. And, of course, this is exactly what we see on social media, from both men and women. It's a brilliantly designed system. Horrible, but brilliant.
The consequences of this inherently misandrist philosophy have been felt throughout society for decades. There are practically no domestic violence shelters or rape resources for men, even though men constitute almost half of rape victims. Men having lower rates of graduation from both high school and college (and of course all of the feminism-funded scholarships are for women, even though they're currently approaching 60% of graduates - gEnDeR eQuALiTy). Generations of boys having now grown up internalizing this misandry, being told that they're inherently aggressive rapists and being forced to take re-education classes. The results of this widespread, societal internalized misandry are clearly visible here in this thread.
And, of course, as mentioned above, the incredible brilliance of the system is that all of these failings (and countless, countless others) are conveniently deemed due to the totally neutral academic term "patriarchy", and not due to feminists pushing misandrist policy for decades that have had demonstrable negative outcomes for men. So, out here in the real world, men get blamed for women's problems, and they get blamed for their own problems as well.
Feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender equality, as much as people claim it does ("If you believe in gender equality, you're a feminist whether you like it or not!"). Feminism is fundamentally built on decades of misandrist philosophical baggage, and it's time we threw it all out, burned the system down, and started over with a philosophy that's actually dedicated to gender equality, from the ground up.
Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they’re taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn’t a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.
Just because you were taught to say stupid things on the Internet doesn't make them not stupid.
You chose to say a stupid thing on the Internet, and you're responsible for that choice.
Don't erode your agency. Don't erode the agency of women.
Just because you think women are mindless slaves implanted with doctrine by whatever they are taught doesn't mean we all have to believe it.
The patriarchy isn’t “men are harming people all by themselves.” It’s the gender roles and gender hierarchy that both men and women perpetuate.
This wasn't an invitation for you to speak up. You don't have to center feminism in a topic about how masculine emotions are belittled by women, undermined by women, and appropriated by women to further their agenda. If you do, you suffer the consequences.
This is an opportunity for you to listen.
Pointing out shitty behavior is systemic doesn't absolve the person of their responsibility for that behavior. It helps illustrate the issue is systemic and not just some crazy one off occurrence. It also gives an angle of attack on solutions to the systemic problem.
The patriarchy is just as much a men's lib issue as it is a feminist issue. The gender roles and hierarchy harms men. Women being shitty to a guy for expressing emotion is an example of just that.
You should really learn to 'respect my no.'
This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up.
I understand that you feel discomfort when men talk about the alienation of experiencing women being shitty, but you're out of your lane now.
Blaming the patriarchy online does nothing to further your agenda, it just makes you look like someone who appropriates issues thoughtlessly and carelessly, as well as selfishly.
I understand that in your limited viewpoint "abolishing patriarchy" will solve every problem men have, but I think that's stupid. Your ideology is not a cure; the only thing your spreading it cures you of is your own discomfort, and that's inappropriate here.
This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up.
There wasn't an invitation for you to speak up either. But you chose to speak up so you should expect some push back. Looking at how you've presented yourself so far I seriously doubt you'll listen to me, so I'll just put my argument very plainly. Nobody should listen to you because you refuse to listen to anyone else.
You haven't addressed anything the other person has said. All you've pretty much done is try to put words in their mouth so you could counter an argument that was never made. There's no discussion here, it's just you screaming into the void and the other person wanting to believe you're a normal person.
But people are listening to me.
You haven’t addressed anything the other person has said.
So?
My point is about the nature of their statement and how it centers women in a topic that is about how when men speak about feelings women center a feminine perspective.
Just because you're not listening doesn't mean others aren't.
But people are listening to me.
I'm going to assume you meant listening (and agreeing). Because there are people listening and disagreeing, for example me. But how do you know anyone else is agreeing with you? Do you have anything empirical to show that would indicate what you believe or is it just something you want to believe?
My point is about the nature of their statement and how it centers women in a topic that is about how when men speak about feelings women center a feminine perspective.
And if you were listening instead of just screaming you'd notice that their statement does not center around women. Their argument is that patriarchal beliefs can be adopted by both women and men and in this case the patriarchal belief is that men shouldn't express their emotions and in the image it is a woman perpetuating that belief by refusing to accept what was said.
He's not going to accept the concept of patriarchy as anything other than a feminist idea that centers women.
I agree with them, for one.
Do you have anything empirical to show that would indicate what you believe or is it just something you want to believe?
Getting upvotes on my main points.
People who disagree with me right now are still in a backlash phase. They'll either listen and think about it and accommodate the obvious truth that feminism isn't a panacea for men's issues because that's just stupid.
Or they'll keep on bleating about the patriarchy every time a man expresses some feelings.
And if you were listening instead of just screaming
I'm not screaming, I'm lecturing.
The centering of women in a topic about men's feelings being undermined by women centering their perspective is an obvious problem. It's not that difficult to understand that if a woman were talking over a Black woman's experience to talk about patriarchy instead of racism, that woman would be out of line.
C'mon.
Your patriarchy concept isn't working. You can't reach men by talking about the patriarchy. Joe Rogan doesn't talk about the patriarchy. It's not that complicated, you just hold to your ideology hoping that if everyone nods their heads and says "yes the patriarchy is to blame" the problem will get fixed. That's stupid.
their statement does not center around women.
That's stupid.
Their argument is that patriarchal beliefs can be adopted by both women and men and in this case the patriarchal belief is that men shouldn’t express their emotions and in the image it is a woman perpetuating that belief by refusing to accept what was said.
You're not listening. Try again.
Getting upvotes on my main points.
And yet every reply is in disagreement and almost every follow-up reply made by you is heavily downvoted.
People who disagree with me right now are still in a backlash phase. They’ll either listen and think about it and accommodate the obvious truth that feminism isn’t a panacea for men’s issues because that’s just stupid.
Another argument that was never made. You're the one who brought up feminism in the first place and nobody said feminism should solve men's issues.
I’m not screaming, I’m lecturing.
The lecturers I remember would address questions instead of ignoring them.
The centering of women in a topic about men’s feelings being undermined by women centering their perspective is an obvious problem. It’s not that difficult to understand that if a woman were talking over a Black woman’s experience to talk about patriarchy instead of racism, that woman would be out of line.
So if it was another woman talking over a White woman's experience that wouldn't be out of line? It wouldn't be a patriarchal issue if the person talking over had been a man instead of the woman?
The argument you're refusing to address is that the gender does not matter when it comes to patriarchy.
Your patriarchy concept isn’t working. You can’t reach men by talking about the patriarchy. Joe Rogan doesn’t talk about the patriarchy. It’s not that complicated, you just hold to your ideology hoping that if everyone nods their heads and says “yes the patriarchy is to blame” the problem will get fixed. That’s stupid.
Just because the vast majority of people are unwilling to question their beliefs does not mean the concept is wrong. That's like saying socialism is wrong because the large majority of society is taught "capitalism good, socialism bad" so they wouldn't question capitalism and would view socialism as something bad.
And once again, nobody said if everyone agree patriarchy is to blame that would solve the problem. It wouldn't, but it would at least be a step in the right direction because people would at least acknowledge there's a problem.
Anyway. I'm done with your comments. As I said in the very first comment, you're not here to listen. You just want to get on a soapbox and scream about your deeply rooted personal beliefs you refuse to question. I feel I've made my points about how you don't listen and your points are nonsense and I really have no desire to talk to you because you won't actually address the core arguments anyone is making. You'll just pile on irrelevant information to try and shift the discussion to something adjacent and it's just not worth the effort.
Idk why you thought I was doing any of that. What I meant was this woman feels that it is normal or okay to act in the way that she is because the patriarchal society in which we live makes that normal. It is not an excuse, it is an explanation and identification of a much broader issue.
Idk why you thought I was doing any of that.
Sounds like an opportunity for introspection for you, then!
That's it, I am blocking sh.itjust.sucks. I can't handle the egos
Thank you for making me introspect about my snarkiness on Lemmy. You've helped me see how much of a dipshit it makes me look like
Edit: I'm not saying the patriarchy isn't real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you're just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.
"neoliberalism is when you want to dismantle patriarchy"
so are these women naturally "shitty" this is a deterministic take. a more is grounded in material approach is the patriarchy / modern culture teaches us to behave in certain ways etc, women need a strong man as women are weak according to western cultural norms.
You are correct that I was speaking glibly and that when I said "shitty woman" I could have said "a woman who happened to be acting shitty."
Sure, shift blame away and never help feminism 101 when it comes to men
Exactly. All of the internalized misandry in the comments here is really disheartening.
Please read the rest of my comments
I am a man, I have been hurt by women who would not have done so if the society in which they live did not deem it normal and ok. While these women are responsible for their actions and should do better, they would not have acted this way if patriarchal society didn't deem men to be lacking in emotion or "emotionally strong".