The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
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So you think it is impossible for the left in the US to win then, got it.
Electorally, yes.
Stein is a moron going for the top of the heap without any support whatsoever and only serves as a spoiler to let the right win.
The right wins if the Dems or Reps win.
The Dems are slightly left, so I will vote for the best option available.
The Dems are right-wing, increasingly so over time.
So you don't believe the left has a chance of flipping local seats and building support, but also want people to join leftist orgs for...reasons?
The electoral system is designed to prevent leftist change. Winning minor, local seats is not only ridiculously difficult, but upon gaining support the DNC and GOP collaborates against leftists, like what happened in GA and PA with PSL. Joining an org is so that leftists can build up dual power outsids the electoral system, revolution is the only way to avoid climate disaster and world war 3.
What's the plan for when Republicans strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters?
The same as when Democrats strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters. Encourage people to join leftist orgs like PSL, FRSO, and abandon the right-wing Democrats.
Your plan of "I simply won't support genocide" does at least as much as me voting for Kamala, that is to say, relatively little. You "not supporting" something doesn't stop it from happening lol
You supporting something certainly helps it happen.
Is there a line that the Dems could cross for you to abandon them? As the US gets more fascist due to Capitalist decay, which is accelerating, is there a jumping off point? Or will you stand in line with the US Empire the whole way?
Ah, there it is. You are just an accelerationist. Good luck with the revolution. Don't be surprised when you get betrayed by the insiders who got more people to back them and end up against the wall like most leftist groups in popular revolutions.
I'll waste more breath when you grow up a little and understand how the world works a bit more, lol. I'm sure more leftist infighting and crying online will help the cause until then!
You can't respond to any of my points, so you project and call me an accelerationist for saying Capitalism is getting worse and we need to have a revolution. You can't make this up, you declined to answer my question about a jumping off point from the Dems because that point doesn't exist for you. Genocide is okay for you then, everything is justified except fighting back.
Yes, if I had to pick between the immediate safety of my friends and family over the safety of random strangers, I will pick my friends and family. Truly a shocking revelation!
I've answered the question of where my line is to another user.
And yes, wanting a revolution is accelerationist nonsense - look at history and tell me how many popular uprisings actually made life better and for how long. Most revolutions aren't actually done by the "plucky group of militiamen," they are done by government insiders who use leftists to get a W and then boot them out.
look at history and tell me how many popular uprisings actually made life better
Cuba, Vietnam, China, USSR, hell even the dprk. Look at life expectancy, literacy, infant and maternal mortality, extreme poverty metrics, worker self management systems, and moving from dictatorship to soviet style proletarian democracy
Most revolutions aren’t actually done by the “plucky group of militiamen,” they are done by government insiders who use leftists to get a W and then boot them out.
All of these revolutions were lead by organizations that didn't have government insider connections like that.
Cuba, Vietnam, China, USSR, hell even the dprk. Look at life expectancy, literacy, infant and maternal mortality, extreme poverty metrics, worker self management systems, and moving from dictatorship to soviet style proletarian democracy
You are factually correct, but this is rhetorically a poor point to make unless your goal is to have the argument be an endless quagmire of tangents upon tangents (which I don't think it is). Clearly you would generally know better than I, but I can't help but feel that a simpler answer like:
"The liberal revolutions against feudalism broadly had a progressive character, though feudalists and conservatives generally portrayed them as barbarous, traitorous, heretical, etc. Socialist revolutions were likewise broadly progressive, with their rightward opponents portraying them the same way"
Would be a good way to touch on this point generally without just begging them so directly to vomit every red scare myth and reactionary reddit thread they've ever seen at you, or just leave because those things went through their mind and that was enough.
Good point, thanks for the criticism
Yes, if I had to pick between the immediate safety of my friends and family over the safety of random strangers, I will pick my friends and family. Truly a shocking revelation!
So, yes, genocide is okay by you as long as it's people overseas. Can't say I agree.
And yes, wanting a revolution is accelerationist nonsense - look at history and tell me how many popular uprisings actually made life better and for how long. Most revolutions aren't actually done by the "plucky group of militiamen," they are done by government insiders who use leftists to get a W and then boot them out.
Revolution isn't accelerarionist, accelerationism is different.
Secondly, the vast majority of Leftist revolutions have dramatically improved metrics like life expectancy, home ownership, literacy rates, and more, this is just unfathomably wrong. Read Blackshirts and Reds, specifically the second chapter but I'd read from the start.
Yes, genocide is acceptable insofar as I know my actions won't stop it, and I'm not gambling with the lives of people I care about over "maybe the revolution will stop it eventually" or whatever nonsense you believe will happen.
And no, I'm not reading a book about your claims. This is an internet argument lol
The bottom line remains this: calling every Dem supporter genocide lover and telling them how evil they are isn't going to do shit for the cause besides piss people off and undermine thr message. The vast majority of discourse online is about how obnoxious you guys are lmao
Yes, genocide is acceptable insofar as I know my actions won't stop it, and I'm not gambling with the lives of people I care about over "maybe the revolution will stop it eventually" or whatever nonsense you believe will happen.
You are gambling with their lives, the Dems continue to push right as Capitalism decays. You have no solution for this, just acceptance. Thinking revolution is nonsense is also ridiculous.
And no, I'm not reading a book about your claims. This is an internet argument lol
You made the claims, I offered a source thoroughly debunking them. If you think the Tsars, the fascist Batista regime, or the nationalist Kuomintang were better than the Communists in Russia, Cuba, and China, you have no clue what you're talking about, nor how brutal previous conditions were.
The bottom line remains this: calling every Dem supporter genocide lover and telling them how evil they are isn't going to do shit for the cause besides piss people off and undermine thr message. The vast majority of discourse online is about how obnoxious you guys are lmao
You literally admitted to being fine with genocide, I don't see how it gets more mask-off than that.
My point is that your entire premise of "don't vote for the Democrats" while plotting a revolution is nonsensical.
If you think both need to be overthrown, why allow the much worse option for the climate and average person to get into power by withholding your vote? Does it not make more sense to pick the least damaging option available to you while plotting for long term goals? Are you okay with more people dying from the Republican party's policies when you can actively stall/stop them?
And if you think I'm mask off or whatever platitudes you tell yourself for "being fine with genocide" go off I guess. Nuance never hasnt been the far left's speciality (except when infighting).
My point is that your entire premise of "don't vote for the Democrats" while plotting a revolution is nonsensical.
You haven't supported that point.
If you think both need to be overthrown, why allow the much worse option for the climate and average person to get into power by withholding your vote? Does it not make more sense to pick the least damaging option available to you while plotting for long term goals? Are you okay with more people dying from the Republican party's policies when you can actively stall/stop them?
The Republicans are monstrously evil, but are no way "much worse" than the monstrously evil Democrats, because both serve their donors alone.
And if you think I'm mask off or whatever platitudes you tell yourself for "being fine with genocide" go off I guess. Nuance never hasnt been the far left's speciality (except when infighting).
You said you were okay with genocide, said you refuse to read books, and never responded to my counters to your ridiculous claims supporting the Tsars, Batista regime, and Kuomintang over the Leftists.
Its pretty obvious as I've continually hammered that the Dems are the less damaging option, which is why I support them.
The Republicans are "much worse" if you leave your little echo chamber: look at the track record for each party. The Republicans want to mass deport immigrants, constantly deny climate change exists, and have their plan to kill off trans people and other sexual minorities in their playbook. Not to mention the whole "Muslim ban" they did under Trump. The Democrats by contrast... don't do those things. That's all there is to it for me to know they are better. Make a vent diagram on the actual policies each party has implemented, and you will see a stark difference, even if they are both "Right."
There we go with the classic attenpt at a gotcha again. I never said I supported any of those regimes, yet you seem to think I do. I have the cognitive capacity to look at the aftermath of those things and go "man, that sure was a lot of dead people. maybe I should try the peaceful approach first."
furthermore, how many of those Arab Spring revolutions ended with things being better for the people? My claim is that across all revolutions, there is a rather high chance for things to go tits up and ruin everything.
The Republicans want to mass deport immigrants
They do, but the Democrats have deported more and are continuing to do so right now, with no sign of Harris wanting to do different from Biden on that or any front other than having a Republican in her cabinet (by her own characterization, the biggest difference between the two of them is her wanting that last thing).
This is that classic thing where the kids in cages under Obama "didn't exist" until Trump entered office and finally there was an incentive by a branch of the media to report on it, though they did so only to blame Trump for it and not doing a thing to hurt their sacred cow Obama. You keep chanting "grow up" like it's some own, but it seems plain that you are basing it off of your perception of the "Adults in the Room," the Dems and their media lackeys, with any substantial break from them and their professed ideology representing immaturity by the very fact.
Its pretty obvious as I've continually hammered that the Dems are the less damaging option, which is why I support them.
It's clear you believe that, but it's clear that I don't. You haven't supported that logically.
The Republicans are "much worse" if you leave your little echo chamber: look at the track record for each party. The Republicans want to mass deport immigrants, constantly deny climate change exists, and have their plan to kill off trans people and other sexual minorities in their playbook. Not to mention the whole "Muslim ban" they did under Trump. The Democrats by contrast... don't do those things. That's all there is to it for me to know they are better. Make a vent diagram on the actual policies each party has implemented, and you will see a stark difference, even if they are both "Right."
The Democrats still do those things, please leave your echo chamber. Virtue signaling isn't policy.
There we go with the classic attenpt at a gotcha again. I never said I supported any of those regimes, yet you seem to think I do. I have the cognitive capacity to look at the aftermath of those things and go "man, that sure was a lot of dead people. maybe I should try the peaceful approach first."
The "peaceful approach" doesn't exist. You justify the immense daily violence and condemn retaliation against it.
furthermore, how many of those Arab Spring revolutions ended with things being better for the people? My claim is that across all revolutions, there is a rather high chance for things to go tits up and ruin everything.
And yet revolution is required for things to improve.
Yes, genocide is acceptable insofar as I know my actions won’t stop it, and I’m not gambling with the lives of people I care about over “maybe the revolution will stop it eventually” or whatever nonsense you believe will happen.
As capitalism decays fascism becomes a certainty. I would suggest reading "The Economy and Class Structure of German Fascism" which offers a political-economic analysis from the perspective of a German who had access to the semi-internal communications of the capitalist class as capitalism was entering its fascist stage in Germany.
If you aren't joining a socialist org that is moving toward the abolition of capitalism you're lying down and accepting fascism will happen.
Stop pretending you don't have any agency and go join an org.