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this a troll account?

Thanks! I will be sure to update you if anything major happens.

Damn I misread your original post and thought you were a teacher, didn't realize you're a student. Also my comment got removed by mods with the hilarious but understandable reason, "do not advocate for children to beat the shit out of each other." I've got mixed feelings about that but for the sake of complying with the commissars of discourse I will clarify I am only talking about my personal experiences trying to deal with racism when I was isolated from any support in a system that was so profoundly racist that it denied me safety when I went through proper channels and only protected my abusers. I was forced to defend myself, I didn't rush to it. If you have other options then good for you! Please use those instead of mine! I wish I'd had a group of peers I could have turned to to stand up with me and for me instead of having to fight outnumbered on my own!

That's perfectly understandable! Thinking about such methods is justifiable from your own personal experience and it's one that a lot of students - me included - have used or contemplated from time to time.

So if you're in a majority white school it's going to be an uphill battle; the administration may be geared toward catering to them more than to defending you.

Honestly, (some of) the school administration has been really welcoming and open (or at least pretend) to our ideas. Though we haven't really had any proper disagreements, so I can't sure that they will be consistently welcoming. And generally, the white students were the most critical of us. Though in less of a complete dismal of us, and more of a "don't change the system" way

But I know that school administration are inherently designed to look "modern" and we will likely have to push it to combat racism in the school, whether through dialogue, petitions, protests or demonstrations. My other concern - especially if we fail to put enough pressure on the school to make changes - is that as a race education group, our presence would help make the school to look "modern" without them doing a lot; I wouldn't be surprised if they were welcoming to our ideas for this reason.

then you can take collective N O N V I O L E N T action together in any of the following ways:

Speaking from my last point, this was my approach forward if we couldn't get our ideas heard, or if racism persisted to be an issue. It would be great if we could collect instances of racism - especially ones that were handled badly - and then used that as a basis for a school-wide demonstration or protest!

Also, your written ideas sound effective to me so I'll keep them in mind when the time comes.

These still sound pretty confrontational but confrontation is the only way to not get swept under the rug. Formal complaints within the system just get thrown in the trash bin. And let's be honest, it is extra hard to learn anything when you're hypervigilant about racist abuse. The white kids don't have to have their learning impeded by that shit, it's not fair that y'all have to.

Definitely! Our current approach is still dialogue (though we have considered demonstrating and have used petitions as well), but if the school administration stops listening, we are very willing to engage in nonviolent action. If nothing does truly change, then we'll make sure that they make the needed changes so that the school can do its job properly of stopping racism in the school. Your nonviolent action ideas sound effective to me o I'll keep them in mind when the time comes.

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Okay, that's fine. I will be taking all of these ideas into account, then. Thanks!

Yeah true! We do have a school cultural celebration day and racism isn't really an issue there.

Definitely! Thanks to the book recommendations from a while back, we were able to add books with anti-racism themes that we hope students will read as another method of combating (systemic) and internalized racism. We hope to find more refined and effective ways of combating racism, and we will keep pushing and advocating for change until it is truly eradicated!

See my reply to a similar policy idea.

Is there any harm in pitching the idea? Obviously not as your only one but as part of a group of solutions for your teachers to okay and sign off on

Not really, though I am certain that that policy would not be allowed. Maybe I'll pitch it as part of a range of possible approaches, although the policy itself is a major privacy violation (along with legal repercussions), especially as the students are children.

I do like the idea of publicly shaming students, though. What do you think about these approaches?

• Name-and-shame lists in classrooms:
  • Consistent source of shame for the student, though this approach would be more effective for younger students than older students.
• Public apology:
  • The offending student(s) would apologise in an assembly in front of the students in their grade. Would greatly increase their shame and hold them to account in front of all of their classmates.

Admittedly, it's hard thinking of policies centred around public shaming without being too oriented towards younger students (below 11) or being legally questionable for children (above 18). I'm sure that your idea would be more accepted in a university, for example.

Could even do some sly tricks where most of the options are obvious No but then sneak this option in as the "moderate" position

Haha tempting but I don't know if that will work as a strategy! Though in our meetings with school leadership, I'm sure that individual members will make similar points to the ones that you are making to see how receptive they are to them.

I would personally do a policy to post their pictures on the walls and publicly shame them for their offence with that. Teaches them its not acceptable and that it's something they should be shunned by everybody for. Could help create a mob mentality against racism too

Quite a few of us in the group did consider this idea, but I highly doubt the school would allow that as the students and parents may see it as a form of harassment. We would like more combative measures against racism, though.

Digressing: don't have much experience with this unfortunately because in my highschool that had Chinese people as the plurality race and less white people than POC, there was actually very little racism, and the one small group of white kids who hated Asians transferred out specifically there were too many Asians so they kinda solved our own problems for us

That does sound like a more welcoming space! In your case, the varying attitudes towards racism between white and non-white people was very apparent to the point that racism wasn't even an issue. I did discuss the idea that white people have to do more to combat racism as they will naturally find it harder to condemn something they don't experience in this comment.

To clarify, all of the members of the group are students, including me.

Unironically the policy should be that you let and encourage people of color to beat their racist classmates and then have their back when they get in trouble for "violence".

Honestly, I can understand that perspective and I know other schools that are far more diverse in their racial demographics (my school is predominantly white) in which students combat racism with violence. It definitely makes the victims of racism feel more welcome in the school, plus it does a good job at combating a culture of acceptance of racism.

Beating racists is the only thing that ever got them to atop attacking me (yes, attacking, because it doesn't end with mere words). And it was nice when teachers looked the other way instead of bringing the hammer down on me (most brought the hammer down. Fuck those ones).

Ideally, a target of racist abuse attacking their racist classmates in retaliation would be excused to an extent in the same way a target of physical abuse attacking their abuser would be excused to an extent. Understanding why they reacted that way rather than the reaction itself allows for justification of their retaliation. However, there is little chance that school administration would consider permitting violence (even against racists), though I'm sure that we could push for a reduced punishment as the repercussions for the two parties should never be equal.

Oh, I see. For me, I would evaluate the idea of calling the police to school like this:

• Further clarifies the weight of racist incidents and the zero-tolerance policy that the school has for it
• Relies on a tactic of fear, plus the police are a major source of racism

In that perspective, inviting the police does seem like a very bad idea. Though I still like the idea of at least including senior members of staff to talk to the students as they should further clarifiy the severity of racism.

Your racialized students are all victims of racism at nearly all times.

I should clarify that everyone in the group are students, including me.

So when someone uses a racial slur, racialized people experience harm if they are exposed to it. A) what is that harm if the slur was used at them versus if that slur was used near them but not at them? B) is there harm if no racialized people are exposed to that event?

A) As a marginalised person, if I did hear a slur not being used directly at me, I would still feel uncomfortable and unwelcome as it sets a precedent on what is and isn't accepted by the students as well as the teachers.

B) Yes; a culture of acceptance would be created that racialized people would inevitably be exposed to. Additionally, it would effectively tolerate more slurs and acts of racism that would further harm racialized people.

To put a finer point on it, if a white child, in a room of 5 white children and a white teacher, uses a racial slur, how would you describe that, how would you understand the consequences of that, how would you make the decision on whether and how to intervene, and how would you communicate your decision in context?

A racist incident of that nature exposes the internalised racism of white people against people of colour, and is an example of how much more frequent racist attacks are in white-dominated spaces. I'm not a teacher, and I'm not sure what term I would describe it as. But it is the most covert form of racism and must be corrected to the highest degree.

The consequences would mean an increased normalisation of racism and other discriminatory language. Now that I think about it, this is likely the origin point of a lot of the racism in this school. Whether or not I was a teacher or a student (ideally with multiple other students), I would intervene, especially as white people are generally more likely to tolerate and to be the cause of racism.

With everything I've written here so far, I would communicate the fact that white-dominated spaces do a far better job of normalising racism. Everyone has a role in combating racism, but white people especially as they do not experience racism and therefore are most likely to tolerate and perpetrate acts of racism. The role of white people in combating racism is one of understanding, zero-tolerance and solidarity with people of colour.

Thanks for all these questions! It took me a while to properly answer them, but in the end, I've learnt a lot figuring out my response to them.

Yeah, I was thinking that. Their comment was unnecessary and questionable given the actual topic of the post and what they decided to reply to it with.

police were called

I don't think calling the police would be a good idea given their reputation of brutality against people of color and the fact that it would rely on more of a tactic of fear against children.

My 5 years there, saw at least a dozen expelled or fired.

Firing teachers for racism is a good stance for me! We'll probably still push for temporary suspension rather than expulsion unless they are a repeat offender.

Edit: Removed idea of calling the police as I have since changed my opinion.

I think the main thing that your group needs to do, is train your fellow students to not tolerate this kind of behavior and call it out when they see it.

Yes; our primary aim is to educate people on racism as a means to prevent people from being racist in the first place. We're also aiming to motivate students to report racist incidents as there is a culture of not snitching on other students, even with racism.

Peer pressure is FAR MORE powerful than what a teacher can do by themselves. I think that, ideally, if there was a racist incident that happened, and the teacher AS WELL as a group of students called it out as being unacceptable, that would be far more powerful and effective. Social shaming is a powerful thing and having students call out other students for racist behavior is far more powerful than a teacher or authority figure saying it's bad by themselves.

Our group is composed of students only, and we believe that makes it more appealing and approachable to new members as there are usually no teachers there. We have had new members join the group because they wanted to report a racist incident, but they felt that a teacher wouldn't do enough against it - or too intimidated - and that allowed us to collectively report a few students already!

Find some teachers that you think would be receptive, and ask them to join your group.

We plan to meet with the school leadership every month to discuss any concerns or plans we have. It would be nice for other teachers to come every once in a while, though maybe not in every session.

Sorry again, my understanding of bigotry was that it encompassed all forms of racism, sexism, transphobia, etc., not by what seems to be its actual definition. The post will be edited.

I am aware of the many aspects of racism; the school administration and us did agree on a policy for racism specifically as opposed to bigotry in general to allow for different repercussions and action as racism can be structural, institutional, systemic and ideological.

I challenge you to get more precise about why you think bigotry is different than other forms of conflict, connect it to the structural so that you’re not only dealing with the individual, and proceed from there with a refined analysis and set of proposals.

Good point; we wanted a more educational than “punishing” approach because punishments were ineffective in correcting racism. I have a list of points for them to take into consideration, including assemblies at the start of the year on race education and the finalised racism policy, as well as pathways to reporting racism to students rather than teachers if victims of racism feel more open to reporting racism to them instead (plus the issue with reporting to teachers mentioned in the post).

Sorry, my understanding of “preventative” was that it implied the correction of the behaviour through education and learning. The post will be edited.

People are who they are

I may be interpreting this wrong, but I disagree with this statement. People aren't born with racism, they learn it.

Thanks! Added to the reading list. This book will be even more relevant given the war in the Middle East right now.