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I have a stupid question: why does drag reading hour even exist? Drag people are not all encompassing of trans or LGBT+ identities. If we want kids to be empathetic towards people different from them and teach them that it’s okay to question your gender, then let’s have trans reading hour. To me drag queens are performers, so having them be a role model for kids is the same as having Kim Kardashian or other reality performers be a role model for kids.
Anyone who knows how I post knows I am not anti-trans or a transphobe. I just question anything that doesn’t make sense to me.
They don't need to be all encompassing for anything. A brightly dressed adult is just interesting to children, and people in general like reading to children because it's fun and it promotes literacy. People use puppets to read to kids after all.
It's also not about promoting being trans, it's about making the kids aware that people are all different, live different lives and do different things. It's why you get school visits from firefighters, various cultural presentations, science presentations etc.
You wouldn't say a native american speaker was promoting being native american.
First of all, you don't need to be LGBTA to be Queer, secondly, when it comes to normalising acceptance drag queens are brilliant. When I was a kid Olivia Jones (or Lilo Wanders?) was in like every second talk show round, having funny wholesome meta-takes.
Or, differently put: Imagine a 2.10m unit moderating a presidential debate in full drag. Heck, imagine a native american doing it in full regalia. As long as that's not possible in the US because the adults would freak out you have to start with the kids so that they won't freak out when they're older.
then let’s have trans reading hour. To me drag queens are performers,
Judith Butler aside, trans folks generally don't want to be performers. They tend to want to be who they are and be accepted as such, blend in as their gender, not stand out as breaking norms.
Yes absolutely. I think you meant to reply to the other poster though.
If it’s not about creating empathy for trans people, then I am against trans reading hour. Sorry, but I don’t care if kids like brightly colored stuff or someone would like to read to them.
My own preference is that role models should give you a goal or aspiration. I don’t think becoming a drag queen should be an aspiration, the same way I don’t think becoming a reality tv star should be an aspiration. Do I care if my own kid would want to be a drag queen? No. If we’re talking about creating goals for children’s future, then performance arts (while interesting) are not the goal that I would choose. That’s just my STEM bias, I guess.
If someone is both a scientist and drag queen, that’s awesome and I think we should celebrate that person. For most people, the barrier to entry to become a drag queen is zero and should not be a goal for future generations. Even reality tv stardom seems to require more skill and talent then, apparently.
Edit: I am not for giving kids role models for things which apparently don’t require skill or talent. Come to think of it, a lot of performance arts require skill and talent. Does being a drag queen require any skill or talent? If I am wrong, let me know
It is about creating empathy for trans people, like I said awareness about differences etc. And like I said, not really a role model because they don't promote becoming trans or being a drag performer to the kids.
Drag performances definitely requires talent.
Bully for you, not doing things because they are fun and excluding activities that don't serve a utilitarian purpose. This is reading hour for kids, not a presentation at Harvard. Last I checked, things need to be fun to get children engaged.
Why are you thinking it has to be a role model situation?
That’s a good question, I am getting it from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour
The program strives to "capture the imagination and play of gender fluidity of childhood and gives kids glamorous, positive, and unabashedly queer role models".[8]
Preferably, kids should have high talent and high skill queer role models, simply because the world is tough and I don’t want progressive kids to end up shark chum.
To clarify where I am coming from: I am an advocate for queer rights, and that includes anyone who does drag. So if we’re bringing in drag queens for story hour, maybe a compromise is that the performer should be something else too, like a ballerina or firefighter (as mentioned my preference is STEM). I don’t care, but simply being a drag queen is not enough. I am sorry
Why isn't it enough? And the next paragraph after your snippet says exactly what behavior they are modeling for the children.
Nina West argues drag lets children be "creative" and "think outside the boxes us silly adults have crafted for them."
Creativity and individualism.
Why can’t we find outlets for creativity which require skill or talent?
But we did. Drag requires skill.
That's a pretty flimsy argument lol, I think again it's a bit silly to just assume a drag book reading is immediately going to lead all the children to look up to drag models and want to emulate it.
Yeah it is but apparently nifty doesn't get the whole value of charity+acceptance+individualism+reading or something.
Some drag queens do make a career out of it. And have fun doing it, I might add.
Or people just take it on as a fun hobby. Do you also have a list of approved hobbies kids can learn about?
And you do realize that it’s not a zero-sum game, right? You can introduce kids to drag queens and firefighters and doctors and astronauts; there’s no rule where you’re required to just pick one.
And, y’know, oh no, Heaven forbid kids don’t get read to by one of your ‘approved’ roll models once or twice in their lives. By that ‘logic’ should regular librarians be banned from reading books too? And maybe most parents, if they’re not in STEM?
You may need to take a step back and look, really look, at your beliefs here. Because you’re veering very close to the helicopter parent attitude of controlling every single hobby, habit, and interaction of your kid to force them into your mental ideal, and that is way, way more unhealthy for kids than a one-time Drag Queen Reading Hour.
Issue with that is that trans people are not performers. On the whole we do not want people to gawk at us like we're unique little curiosities wheeled out specifically for inclusion hour to socialize a bunch of kids who are likely to hammer on our triggers. We usually have to do this for a lot of our one on one interactions with adults and random peoples kids and it's mentally exhausting. Trans people do not want attention showered upon their gender. We usually want it to be the least interesting thing about us. If your librarian reading to your kids is trans and you bill it as "trans reading hour" that is flying damn close to workplace harassment.
The LGBTQIA however as a whole has a historic unique culture that isn't passed down via being born into it. It has it's own orthodoxy and history. It has experienced changes over time but Drag is a queer rooted performance art that has a history of criminalization and individual performers have lineages some of the more storied go back around 80 years. It's definitely older than that but pre WWII stuff is murky and we lost some rather specifics due to it being an underground culture where written records purposefully don't exist but it is essentially a cultural darling. It's not that Drag Queens and Kings are full representations of an entire community - that's not their job. But they are a performance art built around music, dance, comedy, improv and they love attention and treat what they do as a craft. Voguing is another LGBTQIA art form, ball culture is a historic queer social cultural event. The community is a culture and the art form that struck poses leaving the building as Stonewall burned aren't gunna be plussed about some innocently ignorant comments from kids.
Drag Queen story hour is an opportunity to introduce kids to a unique culture's history and performance that has value in it's own right.
Hey I just want to thank you for this comment. I've been trying to better understand non-white/non-cis culture lately and it can feel a bit daunting.
Honestly idk what I'm trying to say, but your comment meant a lot to me. Somebody has to educate the straights and I appreciate you taking the time to politely answer this persons question despite them coming off a bit argumentative.
I am glad you enjoyed it! I have made it something of a personal hobby mission to lower barriers to understanding history, culture and theory of the community to outsiders. A lot of folks in the queer community don't really want to teach because it means dealing with a lot of... Ignorance? Sometimes well intentioned or just neutral ignorance but like it's not their fault? But since a lot of regressives co-opts that ignorance into hateful purpose it's something a lot of the folks I know just can't interface with.
I always try and just address these things with the most benefit of the doubt I can manage and make things as transparent as I can. If folks have questions about queer stuff I love it when folks have a genuine interest to learn something new! I am trans myself so trans stuff is kind of a personal base of knowledge.
Issue with that is that trans people are not performers. On the whole we do not want people to gawk at us like we’re unique little curiosities wheeled out specifically for inclusion hour to socialize a bunch of kids who are likely to hammer on our triggers.
But is reading about performance only? Firefighters are not performers and they read to kids. Let it be a trans firefighter then if they want
the community is a culture and the art form that struck poses leaving the building as Stonewall burned aren’t gunna be plussed about some innocently ignorant comments from kids.
Drag Queen story hour is an opportunity to introduce kids to a unique culture’s history and performance that has value in its own right.
These are great points, but unless the drag queen is also an activist it seems irrelevant
Edit to say not all drag queens are trans, and not all trans are drag queens. It seems unnecessary to enjoin drag queens to trans identity
Let me ask you this. Would it be appropriate to have a "Black Person Storytime"?
Kids like firefighters because it's a hero job. They see the cool suit and know enough about the job to make it seem really neat and firefighters love a bit of admiration to offset some of the horrible stuff they see. The thing that unites firefighters and Drag Queens is that they are both things you do not things that you are. End of the day those are things that you roles take off and put away. You have on hours and off. But the thing about being trans, just like being black, it's not something that you walk stop being when you don't feel like dealing with it. Identities aren't performed for someone else's benefit and it is generally rude to ask that of someone because it is a very othering experience to have that levied at you. So some things are not appropriate to ask people because doing so implies that you do not respect their identity and only want to use their lives experience to further your own or others self improvement and ego .
You seem to have a hangup about authenticity here so I would like to ask another question of you. What if the point is not always to teach a lesson? What if your conception of a library's mission statement isn't on point?
Think about Sesame Street. What do muppets have to do with learning numeracy? My sibling is a librarian here in Canada and they will do anything to get kids in the door. They have a repitoire of childrens songs they learn and perform to engage babies. They use puppets and feltboards and dance in addition to reading. They host first Nations dancers and model train enthusiasts and did a teenage program where they looted a bunch of rejected stuffed animals from second hand shops and let the teens rip them apart and sew them up into insane shapes... Because it is a function of the library to engage people with fun things that get them interested in new skills and hobbies and connect with their neighbors and other cultural groups. They do birdwatching kits and ukulele programs and make marshmallow catapults. They do Lunar new years celebrations and dwali and Easter programs. You as an adult at any point can go and book a room for your special interest group (provided no safety or damage concerns) even if it is against the librarians wishes because that is a community service and is servicing other communities. They want people to know are a service you can go to perpetuate culture, get help with social safety nets and engage your mind beyond simply being a dry educational environment.
Libraries represent a public investment in culture, perspective and community. Education is only one of their many aims. So why does a Drag queen need to be an activist? They are reading to an engaged group of children and performing a pre vetted child friendly version of a cultural art that exists as entirely unique to their country. Even if the kids just liked the bearded sparkly princess and sat down and socialized with other children and were read a book there is value to giving a child a fun day at a library where they were given an opportunity to connect with people they might not have otherwise and maybe be inspired to read a little and learn about another cultural practice in a way that is fun. Fun fosters curiosity and passion to do self directed learning. Kids don't need to be preached inclusion to like adults. If you treat something as fun and normal they learn the lesson on their own.
program where they looted a bunch of rejected stuffed animals from second hand shops and let the teens rip them apart and sew them up into insane shapes…
That is fucking awesome
Oh hells yeah. Teens are kind of difficult to engage for libraries but they ended up maxing out the program. A lot of the kids didn't even know how to thread a needle but they ended up just proud of the weird shit they came up with.
Kind of epic aftermath as well. A quarter of the library was coated in frankenstuffie fluff.
Exactly, drag is a thing people do for personal expression in queer culture (unlike being a different race), but just because it’s related to queer culture doesn’t automatically make a drag queen okay to present at a story hour unless they’ve also done something else. So it’s like goth story hour. Or Juggalo story hour. Also, firefighting requires skill and training. Literally anyone can go do drag.
You seem to have missed my point. Libraries are a cultural trust. Anyone can perform a play but there's a big difference between someone who does it professionally versus someone who performed it on an amatur basis. Drag is not just a fashion subculture... It's a legitimate performance art. It might not be the sort one makes a living from on it's own but there are people who actually fly across the country to perform in other cities ... and there is such thing as bad drag.
What puzzles me is you seem very keen on devaluing Drag particularly? How is it different than say other cultural presentations like lion dancing or Rakugo story telling or traditional clowning? What makes it not culturally valuable and yet those other things acceptable?
Did you know that the Santa Claus at your library is a professional Santa? Anyone can wear the costume sure... but they specifically pick people who have reputable backgrounds as performers because you are dealing with a vulnerable population you have to make sure you are picking someone who has skin in the game . You could have a Goth performer if they were willing to find a way to make it more accessible as it is primarily a music forward subculture that is likely to go over the heads of the kids... But if they were like a goth comedian or magician or something there would probably be something to get a kick out of. I don't know about Juggolos because that's a pretty limited sub culture and might not translate to child friendly well... But showing that these people aren't actually scary they just like to look scary and are real people under the facade has it's own potential for kids to get some benefit from it. You wouldn't want to just grab a random goth off the street and hand them a book, you want someone with a reputation because losing a reputation is something of a guarantee of good behaviour. Also... First time library drag queens go through a vetting process. They are assessed by people with at minimum a Masters degree who go over the set to make sure it's in keeping with the library's mission and certain performers get reputations for excellence between the community of library branches.
Also straight up. Kids love the Queens.
Also - the majority of the benefits of these things don't come from the direct interactions between the performer and the kids but between kids and their parents. The take away is usually a demonstration to kids that their parents are accepting of some forms of non-conformity. A lot of the reason Drag as an art exists is because queer people created sanctuary communities after facing rejection from their families and created a form of comedy unique to queer culture to heal from those traumas. It's why drag lineages have "mothers" and "daughters" or "brothers". It's a reclamation of family. Queer communities would carve out physical spaces to accept people who were refugees from their original communities. When kids see how their parents react to a drag queen they know much better than if they are simply told that they are safe to be weird. That their parents will still love them even if they like dresses or are flamboyant. That's often at the core of what motivates a lot of drag queens to do story hour... Because being a library drag queen is dangerous. Those who do it don't take it lightly and believe in what they are doing. A lot of them do so because they might not have had that acceptance from their parents or lived in fear of discovery growing up or they know someone who was rejected. You do not become a deag queen by being faint of heart. You have to be willing to brave some lunatics who actually want to hurt you . Even where I am in one of the most queer accepting places in the world it's policy for library staff to walk drag queens to their cars to keep them safe. You don't do that unless you believe in what you do.
Once you've seen a legit queen perform for kids you will get it. That polish and confidence isn't something you get without experience.
What puzzles me is you seem very keen on devaluing Drag particularly? How is it different than say other cultural presentations like lion dancing or Rakugo story telling or traditional clowning? What makes it not culturally valuable and yet those other things acceptable?
Because it’s something anyone can get up and do one day. There’s no barrier to entry. The rest of the things you described require training and skill development. Even clowns have schools, but perhaps it’s the same as goth or Juggalo or drag.
I dont care if an architect who is also a drag queen does a reading hour, that would be awesome actually. So please stop straw manning me. I don’t hate drag queens, I hate leftists who try to legitimize sustaining one’s dignity and respect as a person on the empathy and kindness of others.
Also, just because someone belongs to queer culture (or any minority or embattled culture) does not automatically give that person some status such that we need to listen to or pay attention to that person
Edit to explain what I meant by kindness remark (bc apparently have to break down simple ideas lest they’re misconstrued): no, I am not saying don’t be kind or empathetic. I am saying a culture that teaches its members to expect that to sustain itself is in for a world of hurt because the whole world is not composed of just your members
You believe there is no barrier to entry? I invite you to go try it. Not just walking around in make up and a wig and bouncing around in front of your friends mind you. Go in front of an audience that payed a cover and entertain them for half an hour. Charm a room full of patrons who showed up with expectations. Deal with hecklers and queerphobia in a way that makes an audience laugh.
What you seem to require to recognize the value of a performer is being legitimized by a school that is validated by historical structures that determine art. Queer culture is generally not legitimized outside our own internal structures. We were frozen out of legitimacy and devalued by those structures. We had to create our own and because of criminalization our culture was atomized and localized. There is no acreditiation process for drag queens yes....Think for a minute why that is. I realize you are not intending to be discriminatory or cruel but regardless you are upholding a culture of discrimination that refuses to treat these historical arts as being valid unless someone in your wider dominant heterosexual culture rubber stamps it in a ritual of wide cultural accreditation. As a community that has been constantly under political fire and faced routine attempts at exterminaton for centuries yeah you can't go to a university for a drag queen program. That doesn't mean that you're going to be instantly accepted as a queen if you tried to take a spot.
But moreover hackles down. You want to believe that I am condemning your soul as being evil that isn't the case. You are ignorant. That is okay. There isn't shame in being ignorant but if you dig in your heels and feel attacked because you are being challenged you will make this all about soothing your need to feel like you are a good person...and you can be a good person and still be doing harm by perpetuating something unthinkingly. This isn't about you being a good person, it's about the idea you are hauling along with you that holds a seed of subjugation of a community you do not understand.
You believe there is no barrier to entry? I invite you to go try it. Not just walking around in make up and a wig and bouncing around in front of your friends mind you. Go in front of an audience that payed a cover and entertain them for half an hour. Charm a room full of patrons who showed up with expectations. Deal with hecklers and queerphobia in a way that makes an audience laugh.
I am sorry but what? None of the things you described involve any distinct skill or talent, like for example clowns doing juggling. Going in front of people to present and having to deal with bad reactions is not distinct to drag as a hobby, expression or job. Any job may necessarily have that as a component to some degree.
Look I get it, drag is personal expression that’s part of queer culture and queer culture has been condemned and embattled forever.
But I don’t think anyone who doesn’t find value or skill in drag is being ignorant (which by the way is crutch you’re using because that’s easier than accepting that I may have a point).
We don’t have to automatically give respect to someone’s cultural thing. Like someone may wear Burqas or get facial tattoos or do drag or make their babies get circumcised.
None of things are above criticism or being challenged just because they’re from a non-dominant culture. Non-dominant cultures are still composed of people who have the same bad ideas and ills as those in dominant cultures. I don’t care if people do drag, I don’t care if a skilled and talented person does drag story hour. I support queer culture (I am part of it), but queer culture is not a religion and it is not above criticism or right about everything all the time.
Edit also things like art and music do have a barrier to entry, basically talent. Drag doesn’t not require skill or talent, same as being goth or Juggalo doesn’t
Edit2:
Art and art forms are never above critical analysis, and if they are it’s just dogma. It’s okay if drag is queer culture dogma, like wearing a burqa is for someone else’s culture.
But reframing drag as a cultural expression and as a way to resolve psychological incongruities to act out personas (expression as therapy) helps motivate drag story hour by full time drag queens.
People do other things as part of their tribal membership (like Christmas trees) which just have cultural significance and nothing more, so drag is okay itself too and doesn’t need any more hardening than being a part of queer culture. I appreciate the poster who mentioned Stonewall to me, that was a good reminder.
Thankfully our library system has more respect for the craft and the authenticity of cultural practice they choose to present to patrons. There is more here to unpack than I personally care to engage with.
Um… none of the things they listed have barriers to entry. You can take classes for them, and for something athletic like Lion Dancing it’s recommended to at least have some gymnastics training so you don’t get hurt, but you aren’t required to in order to perform.
Same with things like painting or playing instruments. Do you think Yo Yo Ma has a license to play his cello or something? Or Van Gogh had a painter’s license? He didn’t even have much formal training, for heaven’s sake. Do you also think their works are ‘low skill’? Would you object to Yo Yo Ma reading to kids?
Pretty much all art has no barrier to entry. What matters is how hard you work at it and how skilled you can become. And drag, as a performance art, is work.
Anyways, where did you get this weird idea that only things with a proper ‘barrier to entry’ (which, historically, has been expensive schooling that denies minorities proper access, btw—see what’s going on with PoC and trying to work exclusively with braiding textured hair, for example) is the only way to judge quality or worth? Why can’t art especially be judged on its own merits?
…And, um, did I read that right? You don’t like it when people empathize with others? Or are kind to others?
Why does anything exist? Why does firefighter reading exist? Can't it just be, "normal person whose profession is irrelvant" reading hour?
It feels like you're coming at this with the assumption that drag reading hour needs a special purpose otherwise it's weird or something. Why does drag reading hour have to convince you it should exist?
I have a stupid question: why does drag reading hour even exist?
Because otherwise the top Google results for "rainbow dildo butt monkey" would be something much more horrifying. And if you do search for that, that story is what every right winger out there is thinking of when you mention drag reading hour.
That is a comedy of errors.
With the care that I've seen other people put into understanding the impact of their work, I can absolutely see the booking company staff being unaware of what they were booking, not communicating the purpose of the event to the staff, and not providing the library with photo stock of the costumed performers.
I hope whatever brain-dead peon that did this has woken up.
To me, the issue is that library reading hour is a precious commodity and libraries are tax payer funded. I don’t want my taxes going towards teaching kids to do low skill and low talent things.
I don’t hate drag queens, I enjoy their work and I don’t think kids are “too young” to learn about them. I just don’t think they represent good role models for kids. Again, to me they’re like reality tv stars
"low skill and low talent things" buddy wtf are you on about. All they're doing is reading to the kids, something kids enjoy and is good for them. You sound like a brainrotted linkedin guru who wants everyone to be "on that money grindset" 24/7.
All I see are people who decide on things along tribal ideologies, we can do better. No one camp or tribe always has the best ideas
All I am saying is that kids need better role models than drag queens
Dude, this isn’t tribal. This is everyone saying that drag queens reading to kids is fine, and you hating on it for no good reason. Seriously, ‘I demand reading hour be only conducted by top STEM doctors’ is not a good reason.
I am not hating it on it for “no reason” and lol I didn’t say only stem people. I hate that I am being thought of as some bigot or close minded person, so I feel like it’s not worth going on about this 🤷♀️
Because you are, darling.
Drag queen reading hour is fun for kids and drag queens, and teaches kids tolerance.
You are the one fighting against it, because, and I quote, ‘I don’t want my taxpayer money going towards teaching kids to do low skill and low talent things’.
So that shows:
- You think being a drag queen requires neither skill nor talent
- You seem to think reading hour involves teaching kids about jobs they should have in the future instead of, you know, just reading to kids
- You want reading hour to be the exclusive provence of top experts in ‘high skill’ fields
Since those three points are quite nonsensical, it would seem you are either a very silly person, or a bigot trying to skate around your bigotry. Possibly because you don’t even know it’s there.
To be fair there might be a bit of techbro style ‘my child is only allowed to see things related to ‘high skill’ jobs and training for those jobs because little 5-year-old Timmy isn’t too young to be thinking about colleges and internships!’ nonsense too, I suppose, but that’s just as bad in a different way.
1..Just because you say drag requires skill, it doesn’t. We can have better queer role models though because trans people are not costumed performers, so it’s even a little bit insulting to trans identity to say “we want kids to learn about trans people, so here’s someone in a costume”.
I like drag queens, I just don’t appreciate drag story hour because of the quote you shared. If I have a choice for what type of person a kid should get reading from, I’d choose a different person. Or someone who has an another profession and is also a drag queen, that’s fine tbh bc I don’t hate drag queens!! But yeah your psychic ability can see through my heart and what I am saying is a lie obviously. Why? For all the love I am getting for saying this? What a narcissistic pov
Moreover! Why am I so fixated on skills? Hint not bc a tech bro, but instead worried that progressive kids end up being fodder for assholes. I’ve seen that too much, and it’s the reason why you have assholes who can deny college kids a job because of wrong think.
Progressives need to think about strong futures, and all of that comes from hard skills in the current state of the world. Reading hour is a small part of any kids life, and it’s not going to be end all, be all.
But the kind of thinking that justifies reading hour by drag queens is the problem. That’s an innate problem of leftist circles, and why progressive polices end up being ridiculed and voted out. Do things that make you stronger than your ideological enemies.
2.. Reading hour teaches a lot of things, including being goal oriented or aspiring to things
3..No lol
Edit I remember now why I hate social media, gonna do myself a favor and peace out
Given my ideological enemies want to kill every person in drag that they see, I think drag queen reading hour is a perfect thing for my children to engage in.
Drag is not the same thing as trans. It is its own thing.
And just because you think drag doesn’t take skill doesn’t make that true either. Quite a few people have pointed out that it’s a performance art that takes skill, and you refuse to believe them.
You don’t seem to like them or respect them—or actually know how much goes into being a drag queen, for that matter—if you think they’re ’low skill and low talent’.
Showing kids you can dress up like that and it’s okay is a very good thing, actually. When I was in grade school there was a kid who liked wearing dresses and stuff. And most of the kids mocked him relentlessly, to the point he had to switch schools, because for us a guy in a dress was ‘weird’. Maybe if we’d had a drag queen reading hour, we would have been more understanding.
Ultimately it comes down to, some drag queens decided to do this and they are. Trans people haven't, at least not to this level of visibility. Maybe some trans people participate in drag reading hour. I dunno, I've never really engaged with it.
But that pretty much applies to any time the question is "why is group a doing something instead of group b?" It's because group a decided to do it and group b didn't, or because they both did but group a was more successful/visible than group b.
Edit: also, while the answer might seem obvious when put that way, I don't think it's a stupid question. IMO it's better to ask a question if you're not sure. If the answer is obvious, then you'll know one more obvious thing than you did previously. A desire to learn and grow isn't stupid.