Father of Michigan school shooter found guilty of involuntary manslaughter
Father of Michigan school shooter found guilty of involuntary manslaughter
www.theguardian.com
Father of Michigan school shooter found guilty of involuntary manslaughter
105 comments
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Good, they were both grossly negligent with a weapon.
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I have a couple thoughts on this. First, if the adults are guilty and the courts accepted the argument that they neglected to give the child the help he needed, why is the child serving a life sentence? The article makes it sound like he wanted help and knew he needed it.
Also, I thought I read that the parents had not just left the weapon unsecured, but let him use it.
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Because only the parents knew the worst parts, they bought him a gun, and then left it accessible.
Days later when called to the school over concern that he was showing signs of committing a mass shooting, the parents downplayed it and said their son should remain in school.
They didn't mention the gun, or ask the son about it. They didn't even go home to check.
We have this weird taboo over talking about guns. But when a kid shows these signs "do they have access to guns" should be one of the first questions asked.
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The kid needed help, and knew he needed help, but he still chose to go through with it instead of turning himself in.
The drawing on the math paper was a cry for help. He could have just as easily turned himself in, he did not.
It also doesn't help that:
a) Ethan gave his dad the money for the gun, and picked out that specific gun, when he was not old enough to own a gun.
b) Dad made a straw purchase for his son.
c) Mom posted to Instagram calling the gun her sons Christmas present.
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I don’t think many kids know about their options though. He basically said “I asked my parents for help and they denied me, so I can’t get help.” To me, that suggests the kid thought he exhausted his options. An uneducated child is a system failure imo, not a child’s criminal act.
I’d also say that most people who are victims of suicide could have turned themselves in. Do we frown on them because they opted for violence?
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Plus Mom chose to get finger banged by her lover instead of skipping work instead of helping her child during an emotional crisis. Even her boss said it would have been fine...she's gross.
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In USA, we have a Punitive Justice system, which is about punishing people for things they have or may have done. This has conditioned us to -want- people to be punished for perceived slights. This is opposed to a Rehabilitive Justice system that some European countries have, which is about not just helping the one who commited the crime to be a better person, but conditioning their citizens to not be the type of people that commit said crimes in the first place. That's all there is to it.
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Even if he'd been found not competent to stand trial, he'd still be committed involuntarily. I don't know if this makes a difference.
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That ends once you’re stable though.
Edit: also, I don’t mean the kid should be free, but a life sentence for a neglected child seems unfair. The kid knew he needed help and couldn’t get it. Sounds like a victim too.
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Going by the education I got from L&O, what happens in one trial doesn't really affect a separate trial, even for the same crime
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Yes, from a strictly legal perspective. But if we take a step back and ask ourselves “who is responsible?” it’s a little different.
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Because they don't know what to do or who to blame.
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We live in a time in history (like all times previous and much of the future) where resources are scarce, both natural and otherwise. This falls into the "otherwise" category. Does the boy need help? Yes. He is a human, and so he deserves help like the rest of us. However, the resources diverted to helping him could help many more, instead. Many who have a much higher chance of rehabilitation. Triage isn't a nice thought, but in the mental health crisis we live in, it's the only thing we have. We have to help as many as we can, and that means some of the ones that need it the most get left behind. If there were infinite means of rehabilitation and assistance then he would get everything he needs, unfortunately that isn't the case, and so instead he gets the most we can offer, which is life in prison. There will be other options for help inside, though they are lacking. Perhaps through a societal and political change we can begin to better help him and those like him, but those changes have to happen before any work can be done. Railing against the system won't do any more good than banging your head against a wall. Right now, helping him isn't an option, though, if you work hard for it, you can help change that. Talk to your state politicians, send letters, raise awareness among your peers. If the change is important to you, then make it a priority in your life.
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These have got to be some of the stupidest people alive, holy shit
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We know who they voted for too.
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Republicans?
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It's pretty wild that you can charge someone as an adult and then charge their parents.
I really don't get the existence of charging someone as an adult regardless though.
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“James Crumbley is not on trial for what his son did,” prosecutor Karen McDonald told the jury. “James Crumbley is on trial for what he did and for what he didn’t do.”
They neglected their son's mental health problems and left a gun unlocked at home
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But age up everyone 20 years in the story so everyone is more obviously an adult in your head. 60-something year old parents neglecting their adult son's mental health is not their fault anymore. If he's an adult, it's his responsibility. Even if the dad bought the son a gun, if the son is an adult, then the son was responsible for locking it up and keeping it safe.
It makes sense to me to charge a parent for getting their kid access to something dangerous and ignoring safety requirements. Like installing a pool without a fence that a kid drowns in, that's clearly morally the parent's fault. But the kid has to be a kid. Buying your adult child a pool which they later drown in is not the parent's fault. Culpability shifts when the child becomes an adult.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors
A person can technically be a child, and then found to be responsible enough to be treated as an adult. To use a fictional example, Dougie Howser, MD was a 14 year old licensed to dispense drugs.
Same deal with charging someone as an adult. If a 14 year old plans a crime over months they can't claim that they acted impulsively or had no idea of what the crime would mean.
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I get your argument, but at the end of the day they're a child. I'd argue you can't have the mind of an adult until you're an adult despite how much it seems to emulate as such.
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But there are different places in the legal code to modify punishments against intent, like manslaughter v murder. One would think the idea behind charging someone as a minor is because they are a minor, who by definition has a less developed brain and less worldly experience.
We don't think they're developed enough to vote, and we don't have exceptions to that based on someone thinking really hard about it or really knowing what they're doing. They're just minors, they can't "vote as an adult." Even emancipation is more about separation from parents, it's not gaining full rights as an adult.
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It just makes them accomplices. Same reason you can charge a getaway driver for a murder in a robbery.
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Wow they actually did it
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Sorry, I'm a little overwhelmed with our self-imposed firearms crises. Which *shooting was this, the one where the parents literally gave an ineligible, depressed teenager a weapon for mass killing?
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Good start. Now go after the gun stores.
105 comments
And now there's a precedent set to help stop with your school shootings America, everytime an underage person gets hold of and uses a gun on other people, you can now charge the parents, once a couple more go down you watch how quickly people start properly securing their guns away or more on the extreme side, just give most of them up.
You have something to help stop school shootings, please use it America, it's too saddening seeing how many children die at your school's when it could be dealt with just be properly securing your guns away from children.
This case will cause a chilling effect but in a backward sort of way. The reality is that nobody is likely to be convicted in the way Crumbley was, because Crumbley was so unbelievably stupid it was literally criminal. So the only people who will be convicted under this precedent are the equally stupid.
But more intelligent parents will take note, get scared, and hopefully lock up their guns so their insane kids can't use them to shoot up the school.
Yeah I was iffy on the charges until I heard the details. From what I’ve heard the crumbleys were negligent on a level that’s difficult to sufficiently express
Just another reason to not waste time with guns. The risk-benefit just isn't there.
People want to feel in control and I get that. Take a natural disaster like a wildfire or something. It's pretty much entirely out of your control. In a burglary, robbery, etc., it too is out of your control you just don't realize it. The events leading up to that were set in stone in some failure in the assailant's life, society, etc.
Everyone thinks a gun will make them safer but study after study shows the added risks from a variety of vectors outweighs the alleged safety that comes from possessing one.
In essence, if people had a special device that deterred the one in a million wildfire somehow but that device subsequently elevated the risk of your family being hurt in some other way to a greater degree who would rationally possess such a device?
It concerns me that there seems to be an obvious astroturfed effort to "arm the left" that reflects the ProPublics investigation on right-wing extremists seeking to muddy the waters between the sides and sow a civil / race war. The only people jumping in glee from this are firearm manufacturers who see a new market to tap.
More Intelligent parents probably wouldn't have guns at home in the first place you sure this is going to change anything?
Hmm better make a reminder about this before I head into work as a district attorney
Yeah you'd better especially if you're a shitty parent giving an emotionally troubled teen access to a weapon, you'll end up with a special prosecutor rightfully charging your ass.
Remember Mr prosecutor this guy's wife thought it was more important to get finger banged by her lover instead of helping her child in crisis. They're trash people.
You've got some crazy wishful thinking if you think this is enough for people to give up their guns.
All I want is for people to properly secure their guns at best and not let their hormone filled children gain access to them.
We have shit loads of guns in Australia still, we just don't have it so any billy bob can go down and get a military spec assault rifle to "defend their home".