Serious rule
Serious rule
Edit: Blocked the author's name, because it's not my tumblr. I didn't expect so many people to misinterpret it and respond in this way.
Edit 2: This is not from the same author, but it's a reply to them. I think it might help clarify the post for those that are confused:
I normally don't worry about usernames on tumblr, but since there've been some really out-of-pocket misconceptions in the thread, I don't want anyone to harass them.
Zionists invaded Palestine in 1947-48
Being deliberately ignorant of history isn't helping anyone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora
I do not support the apartheid state of Israel or the illegal settlements and occupation of Palestine, but Jewish people belong on parts of that land just as much as Palestinians belong on others, and this conflict will never be resolved as long as people, especially those who brush of thousands of years of history aside as nuance because its easier than actually making an effort to understand it, argue that only one group has a rightful claim to the land.
An anarchist should be supporting the people, not one state or another, and this isn't to say that there is a power balance or that both sides are responsible, no, only Israel is, but those in power over both people are using them as pawns to stay in power. They are the ones who need to be removed.
I don't see anything whatsoever in that Wikipedia that conflicts with the tumblr post. Would you care to quote which part you believe is inaccurate and why? I'm curious If you're misreading or somehow misinterpreting the post.
An anarchist should be supporting the people, not one state or another
Yes, and here's a relevant quote from Anarchism and Its Aspirations, which addresses this apparent contradiction nicely:
If we understand this sense of negative and positive freedom, what appears as a contradictory stance within anarchism makes perfect sense. An anarchist might firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve to be liberated from occupation, even if that means that they set up their own state. That same anarchist might also firmly believe that a Palestinian state, like all states, should be opposed in favor of nonstatist institutions. A complete sense of freedom would always include both the negative and positive senses—in this case, liberation from occupation and simultaneously the freedom to self-determine. Otherwise, as both actually existing Communist and liberal regimes have demonstrated, “freedom from” on its own will serve merely to enslave human potentiality, and at its most extreme, humans themselves; self-governance is denied in favor of a few governing over others. And “freedom to,” on its own, as capitalism has shown, will serve merely to promote egotistic individualism and pit each against each; self-determination trumps notions of collective good. Constantly working to bring both liberation and freedom to the table, within moments of resistance and reconstruction, is part of that same juggling act of approximating an increasingly differentiated yet more harmonious world.
We can recognize that no state is good while still recognizing the Palestinians' right to be free from oppression and genocide. There really is no conflict with anarchism, even though it may appear to be at first glance. This is one of many very common misconceptions about anarchism.
Did you fully read the post you shared or my reply?
I already quoted the part that's inaccurate, also the post you shared isn't calling simply for liberation from occupation, which I support, its calling for the displacement of Israelis basically "back to where they came form", ignoring that they came form the region of Palestine/Israel, and mostly displaced by their own oppressors generations ago, while still maintaining some continuous settlement the region (so no, they didn't sudenly turn up in 47-48, and Zionism is about a hundred years older than that - like I say, it's easier to brush off as nuance than even learn the basics).
You don't free one people by displacing another. You free both by freeing them from the people playing them against each other and stopping peace for power.
So you are saying that both you and me can go occupy africa cause our ancestors were there at some point?
Lmao, what a dumbass post.
"Oh my god what an easy solution, just convince all Israelites to leave".
Oh my god, why didn't anyone think of that yet!?!?!?
This sounds like the thought process of a 14 year old who read their first article on the subject.
That is not what OP was saying at all. I don't know what hypothetical person you're quoting. OP wasn't even talking about any solution. Just stating that the source of the problem isn't that complicated. Sometimes a simple problem has a complicated solution.
Nobody serious is asking for all the Israelis to leave. The solution to one ethnostate is not another ethnostate. We're asking for a new state that truly treats all its citizens equally. And to have a tribunal of sorts to convict the people who committed war crimes. This is not an easy solution, but getting justice rarely is.
Lmao, what a strawman comment.
It's not a strawman, the post says the situation is simple, and then says to make other countries safe for Jews, implying they should just go to other countries.
It's either that they're proposing a solution that that's simple, or maybe the situation isn't simple and easy to solve like their 14 year old self claims it is.
Where's it say "just convince all Israelites to leave"?
Well I see that it isn't there written, but we have the one sided description of Israel invading Palestinian land and occupying it for 76 years.
And then the recommendation to remove anti-semitism in other countries.
This does imply that once other countries are safe the Israeli should leave.
Also in my opinion if a country occupies an area for that long it belongs to them. No it isn't fair and yes they took it by force. However they would not had to fight a war if they weren't attacked by all surrounding countries.
On top of insulting my post for no reason, this user is also engaging in personal attacks. Obvious troll trying to start a flame war.
Edit: This is a troll
I don't want to discuss Hamas because I don't equate Hamas with Palestine, because first of all that's Islamophobic. Moreover, abruptly referencing Hamas is a common tactic used by Israel and its supporters to deflect attention from the ongoing genocide and shut down conversations.
Also, what kind of shitlord thinks it's fine to be uncivil and offensive, as long as they explain why they're being offensive and uncivil?
I clearly explained why I was insulting your post while insulting it.
And you claimed the situation was entirely 1 sided, so I brought up the Hamas attack, you then stuck your fingers in your ears and repeatedly claimed that this wasn't about Hamas. I got frustrated and responded emotionally before editing my post 10s later.
Keep ignoring any voice you don't want to hear though, I'm sure you'll learn and grow as a human being that way.
Reading comprehension?
Edit: do not engage, it's a troll
Why would they have to leave? Why couldn't they stay?
To all the people saying there isn't an easy solution: you are wrong, the solution is actually very easy, easier than most international problems. It's the solution the entire political world has been willing to get behind for 50 years or so. If I remember correctly it's that Israel return to its 1967 borders and get rid of its nuclear weapons. Every couple years the UN votes on this, the results are always like 230 to 2. The whole world agrees, except for Israel and the US, and the US vetoes it every time.
Imagine getting 99% of the world to agree to something, and thinking the problem is too complicated to solve.
I don't think that would satisfy the people who want Israel to go back to it's 1947 boundaries though.
Yes and it also, obviously, wouldnt satisfy those who want Israel to control the whole area. And there would still be conflict that would have to be resolved from decades of violence on both sides. But it is an easy first step that the international community could enforce and it would start dialing down tensions. But because of my country (US), the world is never allowed to take that step.
Let's say you magically dissolved Israel. What then? Do you put a different group in power with the Jews still there? Do you deport them? Do you let it be a democracy, or do you need to enforce the leadership somehow? Do you carve up the territory for other surrounding nations like the Kurds? It isn't an easy problem by any stretch of the imagination.
Plus, Israel won't be dissolved, it's very well established now. So calling for it will lead to terrorism hurting civilians and more war rather than that dissolution actually happening.
Do you let it be a democracy
That one, if I had to choose. But I don't, it's the Palestinians that get to decide their own fate. I believe it's everyone's right to self-determination.
A lot of people only seem to imagine ethnostates as a solution. I invite those people to ask themselves some questions on why that is.
Looks like there are about 10M population of Israel vs 3M Palestinians in the West bank and 2M in Gaza. (The former number does not include the latter ones, see the wiki link) That would make them badly outnumbered. So it'd still be the Israelis who chose the fate of the Palestinians if you leave it up to a direct democratic vote of everyone in the area of what is currently Israel.
I think a two state solution is ideal. (Though after the attacks I doubt it's feasible) But a two state solution would likely not be able to be entirely democratic, since the majority Israelis would be able to vote for the oppressive status quo.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/west-bank-and-gaza/
Also reminder that early western support for Zionism was born out of a desire to have a place to "dump" their jews, as a "peaceful" solution to "the jewish question"
And that therefore saying that being anti-zionism is in any way antisemitic is every manner of ridiculous when in reality zionism is in-and-of-itself an antisemitic movement.
Edit: I would also like to add that people here are conflating "simple" with "easy" when these are two separate things.
This situation is not easy. The solution is in fact nigh-on impossible to do. But there is no moral ambiguity here over what would be the right thing to do, and to pretend there is is to believe propaganda -- That means it is also incredibly simple despite being close to impossible.
I think “western support” is an entirely too charitable interpretation of history. The British are fairly directly responsible for the current day conflict. They promised the Arab groups of the region, including the Palestinians, during WWI that if they revolted against the Ottomans they’d support an independent region. The Arab’s revolted in 1916, only for the British and French to invade to “drive the ottoman’s out” but decided to carve the region up for themselves instead. Then the Balfour Declaration of 1917 where the British promised Palestine to the Jewish people. Then the Mandatory Palestine period of 1920-1948 where the British emigrated jews en masse to the region. The first british High Commissioner of Mandatory Palestine was a Jewish Zionist. The Palestinians revolted from 1936-1939, wanting independence and an end to open-ended Jewish immigration to the region. The British Army violently suppressed it.
By one estimate, ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population between 20 and 60 was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled.
I have no fucking idea what the original poster meant about “Zionists invaded Palestine in 1947-48” either. They’d been invading for the prior 30 years at that point, with the help of the British. The first clash between Palestinians and Jews happened in 1920 at the Battle of Tel Hai.
The British have so much blood on their hands here. In 1946 they basically said “We don’t want to be in charge of this anymore” and shrugged their shoulders. They got the US to help, who pushed that 100k more Jewish immigrants be re-settled there. They are directly responsible for the forming of the Israeli state. The British just declared that the Mandate for Palestine would end one day and they had no responsibility from that date. They literally retreated from the country during the outbreak of a civil war.
This is also an important point, yes!
You could say the same thing about the US, it's been under european occupation for 250 years.
Most jews living in Israel were born there. Like it or not, that is their home now. They can't go back to their country because they don't have another one.
What can be changed is only what they do from now on. The right thing is to make peace and make ammends with the Palestinian people. The wrong thing to do is the genocide they are doing right now.
You could say the same thing about the US
You think I don't? And what part of the post leads you to believe the author wants Jewish people to "go back to their country"? That is NOT in the post. Where are you getting this, and what are you arguing against? Definitely not my post!
The post argues how jews occupied the land and are treating Palestinians poorly and the proposed solution is to 'make every country safe for jews' and 'stop creating an ethnostate'. The past is past, you can't undo all the things that already happened. The "ethnostate" already exists. Other countries stopping from being antisemitic won't solve anything now. So what I understand is being proposed, between the lines, is for other countries to stop being antisemitic, so the Israelis can go to those other countries instead of their own and give the land back.
The US also doesn't have the right to exist.
See, we've given them more than enough money to buy their own country. You gotta take the training wheels off at some point, and 76 years seems like plenty of time to find their feet. At the very least, wander out into the desert like their dear Moses and build a new Jerusalem, with hookers, and blackjack, and matzoh. Especially the matzoh that shit is fuckin awful and we could all use a place designated to hold all of it. For cultural purpose of course.
I agree the ideal solution would have been to stamp out antisemitism, so that a Jewish State would not have been necessary. But that should have been done before millions of Jews were killed in genocide. Imagine being being a survivor and being told : "Trust us, we are good people now, we won't commit genocide against you... again". Antisemitism and antisemites didn't all die with Hitler.
People say its complicated
Why not just eradicate all antisemitism in Western nations
EzPz
It almost seems like Israel demonstrates the "tyranny of the majority" problem often attributed to democracies.
To service a majority audience, it was all too easy to do stuff like expanding settlements, violently overreact to low-level protest, refuse to negotiate towards a two-state solution, and bottleneck a free-standing Palestinian economy. Of course this marginalizes and radicalizes the minority until it blows up.
Historians can analyze if there was animosity and an occupier mindset immediately from 1948 onwards, when and how much, but it's academic. The situation today is not conducive to constructive resolutions, plus a significant part of the electorate that LIKES it that way.
They probably needed some stronger constitutional guardrails to present this sort of abuse. But again, door open, cows escaped already.
isreal was intended as an ethnostate from the get go. palastinians were second class citizens at best, since the colonisation began. this is bot an issue with constitutions. isreal was always intended to be this way. palastinians where never supposed to have any kind of power or live next to israelis as equals.
