China Vows to Centralize Tech Development Under Communist Party
China Vows to Centralize Tech Development Under Communist Party
China’s ruling Communist Party will play a bigger role in steering its vast technology industry, the latest sign that Beijing intends to exert more influence over swathes of the world’s No. 2 economy.
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but China is capitalist?????
Well I mean Germany did it too? Unless you're asserting that Germany wasn't a capitalist.
Nobody's capitalist, or communist for that matter. Both of these are mythical ideals that nobody has ever managed to implement at any large scale.
Sure, if you base your politics in idealism instead of materialism, which isn't a very useful lense for analyzing politics.
Exactly, though I would say there are some ideals that are more realistic than others. I think the whole debate between communism and capitalism is largely a distraction from actual tangible change that can be achieved and sustained.
Yeah, but you don't know what capitalism, communism, idealism, or materialism actually are, so it's not clear what actual tangible change you plan on achieving and sustaining.
🤡
OK, what exception did I miss?
It's still capitalism when the government does things. It's not a mix of capitalism and socialism or whatever, it's just capitalism because what matters is who is in control. Under capitalism there is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the owners of capital. Hence, capital-ism.
Under capitalism, corporations take over the government and use it to their own ends. Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it's own ends. Either outcome ends up looking pretty much the same.
What we have in the west, especially America, is far more than just "the government doing stuff". Government power and corporate power have become nearly indistinguishable. Corporations don't make long term investments of any kind without government grants to ensure consistent steady profits. We are constantly at war, and those wars consistently serve corporate interests.
On the other side, every large scale implementation of Communist ideals has resulted instead in state capitalism.
No, every implementation of a communist state (or even a vaguely leftish state) is ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed by capitalist powers - chiefly the United States.
So, no communist country is going to exist until all capitalist countries go away or are somehow prevented from interference? When do you see that happening?
A system that can't manage to sustain and defend it's own existence is simply not realistic, no matter how idealistic.
You first claimed that Communism never actually existed, now you are saying that they were crushed by capitalism. Which is it? Communism died in those countries as the countries were formed.
You are giving capitalist countries way too much credit, but that's a whole other web of individual discussions. Communism defeated itself, and what remained couldn't compete with (what passes for) free markets in Western democracies.
You first claimed that Communism never actually existed
I literally didn't.
I support the actually existing Communist governments around the world: China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.
Communism survives and China is eclipsing the US. And no, they're not capitalist. The Party is in control, politics is in command, they are advancing so incredibly quickly because they don't allow the market to run society or capital owners to be dictators.
And now Venezuela is being welcomed into the BRICS and we're seeing a pink tide all across Latin America. I'm quite optimistic we'll win this time.
By any means necessary.
I literally didn’t.
You are literally correct. I got my threads mixed and I apologize. Still, claiming that...
every implementation of a communist state (or even a vaguely leftish state) is ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed by capitalist powers
... comes pretty darn close. Did America hunt down and destroy Communism in China, or is it still Communist?
Communism survives and China is eclipsing the US. And no, they’re not capitalist.
Well, no they aren't. Since this discussion started with me saying that neither communism or capitalism can exist outside of ideological exorcises, you shouldn't feel the need to tell me that.
The Party is in control, politics is in command, they are advancing so incredibly quickly because they don’t allow the market to run society or capital owners to be dictators.
Xi Jinping's estimated net worth is $1.2b. Is that not capital? For comparison, Joe Biden's net worth is $10m, though some estimates go up to $40m. Which country is run by capital owners again? If you think that Xi Jinping only makes capital allocation decisions in the interests of the average Chinese citizen, then I have a great wall to sell you.
By any means necessary.
And here I was actually taking you seriously.
Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it’s own ends.
Least politically illiterate liberal.
Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it's own ends.
No, that is Leninism. Not communism. Those groups called themselves communist, communist party, communist Republic etc. But we're not communist in any significant sense beyond nominally.
Replace every time you mention communism with Leninism or ML and I largely agree however. Russia evolved into fascism. China is absolutely state capitalist. North Korea 100% a dictatorial nepo-state. But not because of communism.
I don't exactly disagree, but that hardly counters my assertion that ideological Communism isn't something that has ever been successfully implemented on a substantial scale.
In the end it's all about centralizes power, whether that is political, social, or financial. That is why I support left-libertarianism. Every intervention by the government in free markets should be considered primarily in light of how it impacts the balance of power. That includes a robust safety net and universal healthcare, as both shift power to individuals and away from wealth.
We also need to completely revisit the concept of corporations and rework them into something that better serves the interests of everyone.
Every intervention by the government in free markets should be considered primarily in light of how it impacts the balance of power.
The capitalist free market is a product of the government, it only exists because of government intervention.
We also need to completely revisit the concept of corporations and rework them into something that better serves the interests of everyone.
Who's "we"? Under capitalism you don't get to make this decision.
Marxist-leninism is literally the base from which most communist theory exists. Most communists are some flavor or branch of ML, because it gets the goods.
You can't be a communist and reject all experiments at communism as "not real communism"
Russia evolved into fascism.
Yeah, after it was couped by US backed traitors and the US enforced fascism.
China is absolutely state capitalist.
Why is their industrial output not falling as they're firmly in the middle income country bracket then?
(If you can't understand the contradiction you haven't read enough theory about imperialism and neo-imperialism)
North Korea 100% a dictatorial nepo-state.
Yeah, and they make all the grandpas push the one train whenever it breaks down. The rats eat the children and the children eat the rats. /s
Have you actually looked at the government structure of the DPRK? You seem to be parroting a lot of state department propaganda for someone speaking with authority on what "real" communism is.
Marxist-leninism is literally the base from which most communist theory exists.
False. It's literally the base from which all failed communist revolutions exist. But see that name before the hyphen? The name before the hyphen indicates an important, dare I say more influential precursor. And the basis for as much communist theory as Lenin ever authored. Marx was cold in the grave before Lenin was born. And he wasn't even the only communist intellectual/philosopher of his day.
Most communists are some flavor or branch of ML,
Got a citation on that. Along with methodology? Not that I'm arguing there aren't a lot of ML out there. There absolutely is. But I've never seen anything definitive on that topic. Because, and lets be clear. Lots of us are somewhat loathe to publicly identify as any flavor due to how bad a name Leninist's and Fascist propaganda taking advantage of Leninist's failings and bad behavior are.
because it gets the goods.
So does capitalism. But that's nothing to justify a basically "lateral" translation. Or the detrimental behaviors of either. Because "capitalism" doesn't justify the killing of my ancestors or all the governments the US has meddled in and overthrown. Just as because "leninism" doesn't justify the millions sent to the gulags to die for disagreeing with "the party". Or all the countries forcefully annexed after the war. Who rightfully resent that to this day. It's always interesting to hear the hypocritical whining of capitalists and ML though. So similar where it matters most that they will dive on you in a frenzy should you point it out.
Yeah, after it was couped by US backed traitors and the US enforced fascism.
So basically a triggered Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Look I'm not denying America's bad track record in the slightest. Reagan was absolutely a fascist. But you need to look inside the iron curtain as to why the change happened. Concentration of power is always a bad thing. And as such, between the concentration and the violent oppression of dissent. It led to wide spread failures of the party to address peoples needs. I mean after all. How would the party know of anyone's needs if they were fucking terrified for their lives to even be seen going against "the party". And for it being some sort of American coup. That doesn't even make basic sense. It's just absurd. Most of the people who had true power before were the same as those that had power after. So they couped themselves? How does that even work..... Not only that they're also still largely opposed and fought by the United states etc to this day. Every single other fascist dictator America ever put in place was loyal to their deaths. Not because they were loyal or anything. But often because that was all that keep them alive.
Why is their industrial output not falling as they’re firmly in the middle income country bracket then?
Wow such a dishonest question. Okay easy rebuttal. As nearly all industrialized nations fall into recession. Why hasn't America? Gasp! OMG could it be there's nuance and other circumstances? Surely not.
(If you can’t understand the contradiction you haven’t read enough theory about imperialism and neo-imperialism)
No I'm just not some circular thinking fanboy. Mind you I am 100% pro communism, just not pro Communism.
Yeah, and they make all the grandpas push the one train whenever it breaks down. The rats eat the children and the children eat the rats. /s
I never made any such claims. But it isn't surprising that sarcasm and strawmen is ultimately all you have to fall back on.
Plenty are capitalist. True no one will ever achieve the capitalist ideal. Because capitalism amplifies and encourages the worst of human behavior. Without offering any controls for it. Capitalism is absurdist by it's very nature.
While it's true no nation has ever achieved ideological communism either. Thats because it requires post scarcity. Which strictly speaking we don't have yet. And directly requires us to address the worst of human nature. It simply isn't currently achievable. But there are plenty of things we could do to move towards it that we aren't and should be doing. But can't, in the United States for example. Because wealthy oligarchs and authoritarians have invested heavily in miseducation and propaganda.
I would argue that post scarcity is something that we could actually have today if it were a priority. Most of the work people do today is entirely unnecessary. What's left could mostly be automated if that were a priority. Instead, what we see is consumer demand expanding to demand more and more stuff, and the majority of the workforce being employed in scams to help their employer collect power coupons.
I disagree. But you aren't that wrong. We could claw back the theft of capitalism and absolutely provide a comfortable standard of living for almost everyone. But there are absolutely some big road blocks. Energy and food demand in particular. But we are rapidly approaching some significant milestones on those fronts. Cell cultures/lab grown meat, advancements in fusion. But again if we don't address the problem that is capitalism. Those things will be hamstrung and used to fleece regular people all the more.
I didn't say that we actually are post scarcity, only that we could be if that were society's priority. Take away all the useless work, and that doesn't leave a whole lot to require coercion. Most of our food production is already pretty much automated, and most of the rest would be if coercion was taken off the table.
I don't share your optimism on fusion, but that's not very relevant since there are other technologies that I see as long term solutions. We also waste tons of energy, for instance Bitcoin alone is estimated to account for 2% of US electricity use.
I don't think it says much for communism as an economic system if all the economic problems have to be resolved before it becomes possible.