1y ago

Electric Cars Are Pushing the Age of Oil to Extinction in China

www.bloomberg.com

[Dormant] Electric Vehicles (Moved to !electricvehicles@slrpnk.net) @lemmy.world

schizoidman @lemmy.ml

1y ago

Electric Cars Are Pushing the Age of Oil to Extinction in China

www.bloomberg.com /graphics/2023-china-ev-roadtrip-oil-turning-point/

93 comments

China's EV revolution showcases the power that state actors have when an industry is a matter of national security.
China has marginal domestic O&G reserves, so moving off of O&G is incredibly important for Chinese interests.
- And since the oil and gas companies in China are nationalized, they will follow along with the government's plans rather than obstruct or bribe their way as with for-profit private oil and gas companies in many western countries.
  
  Woah hold the phone, you're telling me there's a way to build society OTHER than by explicitly rewarding greed and exploitation‽
- They also don’t seem to have many standards either. Specs and reviews I’ve seen seem to jump generations within a few months. I think my favorite ridiculous spec was the ability to use two fast chargers (one on either side of the car since it has two plugs) to pump some 300 miles in 5-10 minutes. It’s wild to read about the stuff they’re doing.
  
  Is there any safety reason to not be able to have two plugs? I could see that being something we could do to renovate western gas stations for EVs in order to facilitate the transition. Just have two plugs side by side so Jim-bob could get his 300 miles in 10 minutes with electric just lol he does with his diesel now
- All EVs still require coal or oil for the electricity. And that doesn't even factor in mining for the metals to make these things.
  EV are okay but they're not a solution to our resource consumption problem.
  Edit: imagine being mad at the truth lol?
  
  You seem to be forgetting that wind, solar, geothermal, hydroelectric, and nuclear power exist.
  Not to mention that, even with coal generating the energy for the cars, EVs still have lower lifetime emissions than any ICE car.
  
  Except that many places are majority renewables for electricity
  
  What? I charge my EV using the solar panels on my roof. I sell what extra I don’t use myself to the electrical company. I mean sure, I bet the delivery truck ran on diesel and so on, but that’s not what you said.
  
  For China specifically and at the present time this is true, but China is investing heavily into solar and other renewables that will shift its energy mix dramatically in the coming years. Not to mention that even now, it's still a net benefit to centralize that fossil fuel consumption into plants that can burn it more efficiently and with better pollution controls than are feasible on cars.

It's worth noting that this is not being done for environmental reasons (more half of all coal pollution comes from China), but for strategic reasons as China has limited access to oil near it's borders.
- I mean, that's a pretty good reason. I'm not too concerned why they do a good thing, as long as it's done.
  
  Not to mention that they are the world's biggest manufacturing power, so whatever they make for themselves will likely also benefit the rest of the world.
  
  Electric cars aren't a "good thing" though.
- An EV running on a coal fired grid still has less emissions that a prius. Facts dont care about your feelings.
  
  Could you please run us through your maths? I'm legit curious.
  
  A Prius will definitely pollute less than the typical SUV electric cars on a coal grid.
  Cause:
  Efficiency of coal power plant and all losses are as bad as ICE cars. The EVs do thermal->mechanical->electrical->grid->battery->wheels and if you count them all up, is not better than an EV
  Prius is designed for low drag unlike an SUV
  Prius had regenerative braking like an EV
  But just the numbers:
  Prius is rated at 94g/kg
  Coal 950g/kwh
  Volvo c40 0.2kwh/km or 190g/km even without losses
  I took Volvo cause they published a report with a good compare ev and ICE https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/intl/applications/dotcom/pdf/c40/volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf
  Even with the current EU energy mix, it takes 77'000 km to be better than ICE, so arguably better. On coal electricity, they are worse. And this is comparing equally sized cars, a Prius will do better.
- Is it worth mentioning? Why?
  
  Just wanted to add some perspective. There's a narrative lately that China is a champion of the green movement, which is absurd
- What a ridiculous distinction. Do you really think this narrative difference in motivation is noteworthy? What is scarcity if not an environmental consideration? What is lack of sustainability if not an environmental consideration?
  It's being done because it leads to a sustainable equilibrium of their social system. Whether that meets your standards of rhetorical "intentionality" to meet the criteria for "environmentalism" is meaningless.
- Car engines are immensely inefficient and car charging is a load that's easy to load-balance for renewables (dynamic pricing see: Tesla)
  
  Yup! EVs and renewables are broadly good things. Just wanted to give some added perspective :)
- Great argument for a green transition in many places, such as Europe, India and Japan. Dependence on fossil fuels is a big weakness.

Now do coal

Paywalled.
- https://archive.ph/KDRr4

Also worth mentioning that it's not just cars, but public transit and city planning.

As a Saudi I'm happy with this development. The future of cars is electric.

But at what cost?

Where are the batteries coming from?
- Maybe it's crazy idea but... China?
  
  No need to be a smartass, I'm genuinely curious if they are importing batteries from somewhere else
  And if China, where are the mines so I can check out the environmental destruction on satellite imagery

“Every car you start driving with electricity, you’re not driving with oil,” said Robert Brecha, a professor of sustainability at the University of Dayton in Ohio
The journalist has to have a personal grudge against him. That d'oh quotation makes him seem dumber than my dog.
- And it's not even necessarily true: it takes a certain mileage to offset the extra CO2 that an electric vehicle requires for its manufacturing (mostly batteries), which directly depends on the grid's carbon intensity. If you recharge your EV from a coal or oil plant, you are still burning coal and oil.

93 comments