Re: Defederation - Does Lemmy need a charter?
Re: Defederation - Does Lemmy need a charter?
Edit: Shit, I probably should have made the title plural - "Does Lemmy need charters?"
From the great discussion below, some clarifying thoughts:
- Not advocating for a SINGLE charter, and less of a system and more of a... convention.
- In my universe, groups of instances could get together and come up with some common governing strategies that set them apart from other instances.
- Given common strategies, other instances can opt in to get in on that sweet, ethical branding.
- What I sketched out below was thinking specifically around what a single charter could look like addressing the immediate issues facing Lemmy to date. A prototype for the convention, even.
/Edit
Looooong time r/all lurker here, something like 10+ years on reddit with maybe 10 comments. I've seen a lot go down.
I'm seeing a lot of hand wringing around defederating Meta, Threads, and even handling problematic instances within the Lemmyverse itself.
It's tiring to see these things come into consideration on a case by case basis, completely decontextualized from earlier crises. And the patterns are all too familiar - the big ones lately have been around (to name a few things):
- Adopt-Extend-Extinguish (https://lemmy.world/post/467454)
- the corrosion of commercialization
- the never-ending gyre of "Free Speech" vs The Overton Window (nazis are bad, vaccines are good)
This definitely isn't a new idea, but at in these early days of the Lemmyverse, we can take our collective past experiences, good and bad, on other social media networks, and define some sort of Lemmy charter that sets standards for ethos and quality control. I'll start:
- Don't federate with for-profit or commercial institutions
- TBD
Because we're done with the for-profit, commercial web, right? In the last couple of days, my brain has taken all the all the Lemmy posts and comments on the subject, mashed it all up, distilled it, and keeps coming back to this idea of non-profit/non-commercial entities.
but y tho?
Because loose, institutional underpinnings could, like a mycelial network, feed the Lemmyverse. And mycelial networks are dope.
Here's a proposed methodology:
- Initial Core* Lemmy instances define a charter of guidelines about behavior, ethos, standards
- Lemmy instances that adopt the charter get known as "Charter Instances"
- Charter instances have a say in the upkeep and development of Charter... things.
*We'd have to think about what that initial "Core" means - maybe the first X instances to have reached Y number of users? Beyond bragging rights that They Were There when the charter was created, no other special status would be conferred.
And because I'm an anarcho-syndicalist:
- Charter status is basically just a blue checkmark that just says "hey, we're cool, folks"
- An instance can walk away from the charter, no biggie
- Charter instances can determine if another instance is violating the charter and take away their status, or choose to update the charter to be inclusive
- Instances wouldn't be limited to just the charter for guiding principles once adopted, instances can do whatever
- The charter should probably be Super High Level, descriptive rather than prescriptive, to allow communities decide how to interpret and implement
And because I have ADHD, and this is currently over-stimulating my brain:
- Different charters developed by different communities! Mix and match! Merge!
- Creation of a Charter .org non-profit foundation that provides material support to new or struggling instances!
- and compensation for software maintainers!
- and legal support when necessary!
- and maybe maintains the technical specification of what makes a lemmy a lemmy!
Alright, ADHD has run its course. Back to lurking for another 10 years.
I don't know that a formal charter is required, but I do think that it is important that all instance admins do a couple of things:
- Develop and publish a moderation policy in some form
- Determine and publish criteria by which they decide when to defederate from another instance
There isn't one right answer for either of those things, and the point isn't to ensure everybody passes a purity test. It's to set expectations for users on the instance, users on other instances who may participate in communities on the instance, and other instance admins.
Well-thought-out policies will be copied and forked by other new instances, and that will create consensus communities of instances that are at least on the same page when it comes to how a site is supposed to work.
It will also be helpful for the community to be able to talk about things like what instances have a lot of bad actors or poor moderation, something similar to #fediblock on Mastodon. The issues that mods face and that individuals targeted for harassment face are often invisible to the average joe user, and can also be invisible to admins if they aren't actively encountering reports themselves. #fediblock creates a place -- sometimes fractious, yes -- where folks can ensure that those issues are visible and give admins an opportunity to determine whether or not they need to take action.
But nobody will read a charter, just as nobody reads privacy policies. Do you?
OP seems to be suggesting a simplified "label" system, based on easy-to-grasp criteria. To me this looks like a much more sensible solution than yet more opaque blocks of TOS.
For example, there could be colored badges. A green one might mean non-profit, and red might mean "careful, anything goes here", or whatever.
A possible inspiration: the Creative Commons codes (CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, CC-BY-NC, etc).
IMO it is crucial to keep all this as simple as possible. It should not be necessary to spend 10 minutes parsing a block of text to understand the essentials about a community.
Yes!
I'm very anti one charter - my intention here is to propose the idea of charters as a way for communities to sort of balance each other out, solve each other's problems and avoid reinventing each other's wheels.
Well-thought-out policies will be copied and forked by other new instances, and that will create consensus communities of instances that are at least on the same page when it comes to how a site is supposed to work.
Yeah, pretty much this, but with some mechanism - literally at an icon level - to indicate to users (lemmings, lemurs, lemurians?), who aren't necessarily keyed into inter-instance politics, and just want to see their memes, that "this instance follows the No-Nazis charter, which I like, and the rest of the charter members agree. Cool."
lemmings, lemurs, lemurians?
I vote Lemurians just for the Golden Sun vibes.
fully support the #fediblock ideia, i can even resolve bots problem
Don’t federate with for-profit or commercial institutions
And right from the first point you have gone against the whole point of the Fediverse. ActivityPub is an open protocol. Anyone can implement it and use it. Anyone can federate with anyone they choose.
Placing "non-commercial" restrictions on it is legally infeasible, and not desirable. What happens if an instance has a donation address? Or if it decides to run some ads to support itself? Or creates some kind of "premium" tier with a fee? What if a company decides to create an instance to run the "official" forum for the games or other software they publish, is that a commercial instance? Who's going to decide these things?
If you want to argue that some specific instance shouldn't federate with some other specific instance, or some specific instance should have its own "charter" that it uses to make those decisions with, sure whatever. But in no way would I support a "charter" that applies to all instances.
And anyone can decide to not allow bad faith actors (capitalists) to connect with their instance.
This is the paradox of intolerance playing out. We have no obligation to enable these scum.
The concept of having a "charter" for Lemmy doesn't seem to mesh with "anyone can decide."
OP has since edited their post to backpedal from that concept, but I'm not sure what the point of calling for instance-specific "charters" are - it just codifies the "anyone can decide" thing, which doesn't need codifying.
some specific instance should have its own “charter” that it uses to make those decisions with, sure whatever
This one, yes.
This seems a very decent idea. Disappointed I didn't think of it myself.
The non-profit criterion is so important. Profit means advertising, and advertising means attention-whoring, psychological manipulation, spying, and basically everything that is ruining the internet. Advertising is a moral abyss.
As an example, mastodon has the "Mastodon Covenant" which must be agreed to before an instance is listed on joinmastodon.org
https://joinmastodon.org/covenant
While it is only enforceable by the people running joinmastodon and the only penalty is removal from the directory, I have seen it cited as a reason for defederation.
What about a company that makes a bunch of products, and sets up a Lemmy instance with a community for each. The company pays attention to problems customers have and use their instance to improve the products. It's a corporate Lemmy instance, but I don't think you should defederate from it.
That already happened. For example, we have mozilla !firefox@fedia.ioedit: I think it's a mistake to throw mozilla into in the same bag with the other corpos. The whole truth is a bit more complicated than
makes money = bad. In this case I'm happy to take the LGood question, something for folks writing the charter (whoever they might be) to take into consideration, and hash out.
Off the top of my head, there are types of for-profit orgs, like B Corps, that could be included. There are non-profit orgs, like religious institutions, that could be excluded.
(Edit: point is that it's something for more and better minds to sort out, and adjust over time)
I’ll gladly defederate from that.
Why not defederate? How much friction is there in making a new account on their instance to:
- get support in an appropriate forum, and:
- keep a fire gap between that account that is a known consumer of Product X and your other account that has lots of other data that maybe shouldn't be tied to your verified consumer purchases like a giant sign saying "triangulate my interests and sell crap to me"
I'm going to be honest, that sounds like we'd just be inventing something for people to get mad about. The entire ethos of decentralization is for that sort of arrangement to not be a thing. Either the charter would have nobody to enforce it OR you'd have to centralize authority.
What you're describing works for various instances to form a sort of collective with shared ideals but projecting that onto the entire network is antithetical to the entire idea here.
Also, and this is nitpicky, I admit-- You're not in the Lemmyverse. You're in the Fediverse, a space in which lemmy is a very new and small part.
True, I specifically called out the Lemmyverse, versus the Fediverse, however. In this moment, the Lemmyverse feels like a crucible of "now what?" where there's room for something like this.
To clarify, in my head, I couldn't, nor wouldn't imagine all Lemmy instances to adopt a single charter, but to have the concept floating around in the space - take it or leave it.
[disclaimer: I don't know how to talk about this stuff without sounding like a Pollyanna, but I'm actually a "hope for the best prepare for the worst" sort of cynic]
You could have one charter developed by a group of instances that are committed to being inclusive, diverse spaces.
- The charter org would need to have a good reputation of member instances following the spirit (or letter, if that's their thing) of whatever (laws, guides, mission statement, whatever)
- Adopting the charter, a staying a member instance indicates to people looking for safe, inclusive, diverse spaces that "hey, let's give this one a shot"
- If a member acts in bad faith, the charter org can do what they will to uphold their reputation. If the charter org itself has shenanigans, they lose that reputation (and members)
I'm thinking about this like a Syndicalist/Confederalist - administrative organizations (interest groups) form as necessary, and dissolve when their function has run its course.
Its my opinion we should remain decentralized. The only global rules on defederation should be illegal content. Yes, thay means they can federate with corpos if they want. I don't care. You can't rule the fediverse even if you tried.
I do over all agree with you. Not sure about the non-profit, though. That seems like something for later when the dust settles.
However, as we all know - power corrupts.
Some form of governing body(ies) is probably necessary to keep the lemmyverse from falling apart by forces inside and outside. Right now the fediverse seems to be pretty much free-for-all. If there was to be a governing structure, it would need a lot of thought and careful consideration in regards to its shape, size and strength.
It is actually exciting to see and participate in how things develop.It is actually exciting to see and participate in how things develop.
Same, to go from years of lurking on Reddit to feeling compelled to post here is an indication to me that something cool and different is trying to happen.