Moooom the trots are being fucking cringe again (this is from IMT)

palestinian bourgeoisie lol

There's a shred of truth to it. Mahmoud Abbas and his cronies just kinda exists as a figurehead of a defunct state apparatus, getting state money to serve as the vestige of Palestinian self-governance. The PA plays Vichy France to Israel's full military occupation, while armed opposition is a French Resistance that's been operating without any hope of a Dunkirk on the horizon.

And there's a shred of truth to the Israel proletariat being swept by the tide of national politics right along with the Palestinians (abet, far removed from the worst of it). The Israeli police were happy enough to assault some orthodox jews in Jerusalem for voicing dissent just two weeks ago. And this was after the effort at sweeping out an Independent Judiciary in Israel lead to riot cops and Israeli protesters clashing in the streets a few months back.

Israel is a police state in every sense of the word. And while they lure Europeans in with the promise of free land, what they're truly hungry for is more young men and women to fill out the ranks of their armed forces. It is worth noting that you can be an Israeli dissident in the same way you can be a Palestinian collaborator.

But OP's take pretends at parity, when it is abundantly clear where the lion's share of sentiment falls in either community.

The Palestinian bourgeoisie lmaooo the LARPing as Marxists has never been so transparent. Literally 13 yrs old me trying to analyse everything as simplistic rich vs poor

Friendly reminder to read Fanon

Colonizer Class Collaborationism, the Highest Form of Opportunism

Kinda unrelated but good work on the struggle on twitter against pat socs rn btw
- oh thanks 😅

trot to fascist pipeline showing itself again

"What if the peaceful colonizers and the peaceful colonized simply banded together to do a peaceful demonstration against violence?"

Whilst this is undoubtably a terrible take it should be pointed out that this is an article from 2010. I don’t think it was a good take then either but it is important to point out the context in which it was written.

Here is a link to the full article: https://www.marxist.com/against-blanket-boycott-israel-working-class-solution.htm

Sectarianism kills movements comrades. Anecdotally having been on marches and actions in London over the past month both Socialist Appeal (the local IMT branch) and the SWP have had a huge presence in support of Palestine. We must remember first and foremost to focus on solidarity and action in support of our Palestinian brothers and sisters, not on ideological purity.

It’s by the founder of the canadian chapter, who btw was only just kicked out after 20 years of being a sex pest, not for dogshit political positions like this one. I’ll be kind to trots when they do something besides show up to protests and marches they had 0 hand in organizing to hand out pamphlets that no one reads (thats what IMT does here anyways$
Interestingly to me, and aside from the positions of the IMT (do they support BDS today?), some dissident Israelis like Shlomo Sand used to oppose BDS on similar grounds, advocating instead for change from within. Sand has said he had to give that notion up in the face of reality, that Israeli society is simply too racist to change or be overturned except with massive pressure from without. (That's perhaps an idealist reading of the reality, confusing symptom for cause.)

I think he says it at some point in this interview. Apologies if I've misremembered the source! If anyone watches, they can let me know. :)

What rights do the Palestinian bourgeoisie hold currently? Still being alive? Because honestly this is a genocide, kinda tough to be resting on your bourgeois laurels when your family and friends and your house are being bombed.

Not defending the statement, but someone else pointed out, that it was made in 2010 though, hopefully some of them have grown since then
- That’s a fair point, much has changed in Palestine since that. Better than the Palestine Israel takes I had as a kid in 2010, I’ll at least give them that

Nah fuck that send 'em down the cuck pit

Im sure there are a couple we can still save thru gulag

Lots of ableism in the replies there. It kinda jumps out when you get used to not seeing it around here.

Yeah it sucks going on twitter sometimes…

⛏️

These people don't even have the benefit of ignorance. They are purposefully doing mental gymnastics for colonialism.

Trotksy, the original bothsideser

What's IMT?

International Marxist Tendency, one of the biggest trot orgs. They go by different names in each country typically, it’s called “fight back” in canada for instance
- Oh that's what Fightback is? I remember hearing about that party having a sex pest scandal around the same time the Communist Party of Canada was having one, but I didn't really know anything about them

pika-pickaxe

EDIT: also I could a sworn HB had a comic strip Ramón Mercader emoji but I guess not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ffw23bAt6U

I find it generally reasonable.

No trying to condemn oppressed's reaction, but isn't it true that a split between Palestinians happened between national authority and hamas, seeded by us/israel?

To the best of my knowledge, Hamas isn't a progressive socialist unit, it's a fundamentalist religious group with a social support network.

While I can generally agree on the concept of "all hands against imperialism", why is it a problem to agree between ourselves that there's a problem with the political structure of hamas?

Please enlighten me.

Because it is a national liberation struggle, getting caught arguing about semantics is precisely what the settler genocides want.
- Point taken.
  
  I agree with "it's a liberation struggle, hamas is fair game" as a blanket public position from everyone that understands what's in play.
  
  And the og post is from a public forum.
  
  But maybe in lemmygrad we don't need the same blanket public position "between ourselves"?
  
  Maybe the criticism is to not share those positions in public spaces, to not give any ammo to the genocidal settlers?
  
  I see lemmygrad is technically a public space, but it's much smaller than xitter. And the audience generally understands what's in play.
  
  Or is it the approach to dismiss the idea of discussing hamas completely, and keep focusing on the settlers atrocities, with a general "there's no need to talk hamas. It's a liberation struggle", including within lemmygrad?
  
  I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. But I'd probably disagree with the approach to how criticism was made in the op.
The particulars of Hamas's social policy don't matter much when their people are being genocided. Once the Palestinians are no longer experiencing an existential threat to themselves daily, can one expect to build a socialist party with progressive social policy. Also, in the bigger picture, if Israel falls, the western powers have lost the ability to control affairs in that part of the world as much as they do now.
- Point taken! I wrote a longer reply to another comrade, if you want to read it. :)
Even from the theoretical point of view, this stance in OP isn't even really trotskyist, trots with all their faults are usually decently read in Marx and Engels and often Lenin, and this take blatantly goes contrary to all three of them who were pretty clear on the class roles in national liberation.

Bourgeoisie? They even supported nobility and monarchs in this.