[CW: chaser username] Hexbear: Not pro-LGBTQ+, the Israel of Lemmy instances

https://lib.lgbt/post/252855

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How do people expect to be taken seriously while blatantly lying about ban reasons when the mod log is public?
Oh look, it was not banned for saying gender-neutral pronouns exist.
- omfg this is dronerights? wild. guess its going on a chaser arc
  
  It originally signed up with the above username and was mad about having to change names.
  
  if i knew that i would have lobbied for more purging, that shit dont change overnight
  
  TomboyShulk puts in work.
  
  i really do wish they were federated just so we could tap on the glass and mention it to the lib.lgbt admins just to see the response. not gonna bother wasting my time making an account for their shit instance that doesnt ban a chaser name immediately
  
  also doesnt implement pronouns. funny coming from a group that claims to be so LGBT positive while deriding the instance with pronouns implemented as manipulating LGBT people. theres many a reason so many trans people are here. at least one reason is avoiding obvious gaslighting.
  
  Fixed link: https://hexbear.net/modlog?page=1&userId=177941
  
  Thanks, didn’t notice formatting gets broken.
  
  Permanently Deleted
  
  I think we should avoid objectification of all kinds when it comes to real people. If they are asking for art, it's whatever, I guess. Queer people are also capable of having pathological behaviors and mindsets, and the replication of cishet pathologies in [individuals and segments of] queer communities has been long-documented.
  
  This was/is the most predictable thing ever. They did not make a single good faith argument.
  
  I disagree with that. I never saw what I understood as a bad faith argument. It bordered on some things that might sound like reactionary points but I think it was just a little confused, maybe had a hard time explaining things on account of being neurodivergent and perhaps didn't fully understand them in the first place. You just had to get deeeeeeep in the weeds with it to try to figure out what the fuck it was talking about. There were a lot of claims that things are a certain way, and then that thing being referenced out of context later elsewhere and you had to refer back to the whole history of the user to figure out what was going on. Maybe it needed a user to ride along and translate for it lol
  
  Edit: Since I was regrettably unclear below You can prefer any pronouns for any reason and that is valid. It is the responsibility of the speaker to make an effort to respect those pronouns
  
  "If you use they/them...you'll never gender someone correctly."
  
  Explain how that's not reactionary.
  
  I'm going to need the context there because that doesn't sound like something dronerights would have said.
  
  The comment is in the modlog and was posted elsewhere in the thread. Copied the screenshot here, context is a transphobic concern troll post removed by mods that it was supporting.
  https://hexbear.net/comment/3890636
  
  I am aware that "they" is often used by transphobes who know they will get in trouble for blatant misgendering but want to show their disapproval still by refusing to acknowledge the person's gender at all (still misgendering). I don't think dronerights was intentionally playing into that.
  
  While I accept that the grammar of that comment does literally say that, I still don't think this demonstrates that dronerights meant "they" is not a valid pronoun because that doesn't fit with the entire body of other comments and posts it made. I think what was meant was "they is not ideal, but until you know better it will suffice."
  
  It just doesn't add up for me, that so much effort would be put into troll posting when far less effort would do the job, you know what I mean? Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut about it.
  
  I'm not that invested in this position to honest with you, I just wanted to air my complete thoughts about this because if I am to be cancelled I want it to be for something I meant! (joking)
  
  It responded here: https://lemm.ee/post/12418057
  
  Here’s the nuance: If you call someone who uses they/them they/them, then you are REFERRING to them correctly, but you’re not GENDERING them correctly, because you aren’t gendering them at all. You’re referring to them neutrally, which is the correct way to refer to someone who wants to be referred to neutrally.
  
  I sympathise and agree with much of what you are saying.
  "they is not ideal, but until you know better it will suffice." might be the intended message.
  
  If the person is replying in good faith and actually trying to both to understand and be understood. And that would include explicitly stating somewhere that it acknowledges that being pedantic about de-gendering vs misgendering is not constructive.
  
  Paraphrasing, the events went along these lines.
  
  user: TERFs use they/them pronouns for people who they damn well know use different pronouns as a way to de-gender people and as a slight against trans people
  
  dronerights: actually, they/them is right anyways because it doesn’t do anything with gender, so the TERFs aren’t doing anything wrong, they are using language correctly
  
  Descriptivism vs Prescriptivism. Its argument is that prescriptivism and technical definition is the only correct interpretation of they/them pronouns. Compare ‘they banned me for saying gender neutral pronouns exist’ with, for instance, JKKK Rowling claiming to be canceled for saying gender exists. Its a false argument. Descriptively, they/them is not used neutrally, and is used to hurt people, therefore they/them can be gendered. TERFs use they/them as a stand-in for misgendering, therefore it is misgendering. They/them means she/her for people who use he/him, and vice versa. They/them means ‘I refuse to use your made up neopronouns’. The gender neutral definition isn’t the only one, and dronerights insisting upon the gender neutrality in all circumstances is incorrect.
  
  The pedantic insistence that the context shouldn’t matter because they/them is technically correct, or should be correct, is where the transphobia lies.
  
  And until I see any acknowledgement by dronerights of this, instead of constantly doubling down on it, I do not see a good faith argument.
  
  Instead we have this. The user misrepresenting events. Misrepresentation is bad faith. If it said it was being a pedantic jerk and clarified, that would go a long way to earning this generous interpretation of its position that you want to give it. It is trying to be right and win an internet argument at any cost and constantly starts fights between users and instances (also bad faith actions).
  
  There are two separate transphobic things in DroneRights's comment that got it banned and you're getting way off into the weeds on one while ignoring the reason given in the modlog, which is enbyphobia. They/them are ideal (whatever the fuck that means) pronouns and they aren't necessarily gender neutral when they're being used for someone who prefers them.
  
  I think what was meant was "they is not ideal, but until you know better it will suffice."
  
  That doesn't make it better holy shit. For some of us, they is ideal. That's the point.
  
  That's.. not at all what I was saying. You can prefer any pronouns, for any reason, and that's valid. Using "they" when you have not made reasonable effort to ascertain another's pronouns is misgendering. If a person's preferred pronouns are they/them that is also valid and those are the pronouns you should use.
  
  To reword my previous comment "(without making reasonable effort to ascertain someone's preference) they is not ideal, but until you know better it will suffice."
  If "they" is only accidentally correct I don't think that's exactly any better because the intention was the same.
  
  I had written it in many more words and then shortened it later, thinking I was making it more clear, but apparently making it less clear. The blame is on me for that.
  
  Also holy shit, you: I'm gonna need proof
  
  [proof]
  
  you:
  
  In the first sentence I also acknowledged that you were correct in a literal sense, but you did do some editorializing. As for whether I think dronerights was being trans/nbphobic I'm still not sure because there is more evidence than I stated with and it leads into some topics I don't feel equipped to make any sort of judgement on, as I alluded to in the last sentence.
  
  I don't think trying to explain myself was uncalled for when the circumstances made me look like I was intentionally and knowingly defending enbyphobic behavior. Not being perceived as a trans/nbphobe here is actually really important to me.
  
  Not being perceived as a trans/nbphobe here is actually really important to me.
  
  kinda surprising tbh given how many words you're writing to defend enby erasure here and that you're still doing it!
  
  all for what, to defend the honor of an obvious shit-stirrer who's been banned for a while now? seems like you don't need much motivation to cast doubt on what your trans comrades here are telling you. putting you back on block now
  
  tldr
- The mod log should be pinned to the front page. And the post should be titled: “If you’re from another instance trying to find proof that your users were mistreated by evil tankies, please search their username in this log.”

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