FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) @lemmy.ml FreeLunch @feddit.de 11 mo. ago

Moral considerations regarding FIRE

An issue I always have with early retirement is whether it is morally acceptable. When retiring early from a skilled profession you are depriving society of a big contribution you could have given, that was also expected and invested in by society. Utilising a power dynamic by having more money and knowledge to capitalise on other people exacerbates this issue.

How are you dealing with this? Are you of the mindset that you do not owe anything to society? That it is completely fair, as you earned that money and there is a perfect market that trades all aspects in a meritocratic fashion (e.g., delayed consumption should be gratified this hard)? Or that you were not just lucky to have the talents to earn so much money?

34 comments

Firstly, I don't think your contributions to society are limited to work. Spending time with hobbies also contributes, e.g. art, volunteering, or open source coding. You can also work a more enjoyable "job" in retirement, without feeling strangled by the paycheck.

We also already have enough production in society for everyone to be happy, and many people's jobs do not actually contribute to society in a meaningful way, e.g. people who work at advertising firms. I think we should target the billionaires sucking up literally all the resources and seeing if "early" retirement is actually a problem at that point. People are working until they're 70 right now, but maybe everyone could retire closer to 50 if we distributed our resources more fairly.
- The issue is that it is immensely difficult to fairly distribute resources, due to not many wanting to lose their wealth for other people. Imo human history has shown that great wealth increase for the poor was often only possible by immense economic growth.
I mean if you have enough money to retire early you have by the definition of capitalism provided more than you are taking by retiring.

Whether it's moral is entirely separate, and would require judgement outside the confines of capitalism, which is not possible, because we don't live by any other system.
- Why is it not possible to think outside of the capitalistic system? Do you think we do not have enough data? I guess even observing the capitalistic system can show you that it is not just, by observing that there are unjust aspects in capitalism that an early retiree is abusing.
Retirement does not mean you cease to contribute to society. It may allow you to develop new hobbies and passions, build or enhance relationships with family and friends, or give time to your community

Downtime may allow you to think deeply on what kind of world you want to live in, or travel may broaden your horizons and make you aware of issues you would like to address - you could become politically active, or contribute your efforts to a charity

You don't have to do any of these things, but don't write off retirement as an empty non-productive life stage. If it doesn't bring you joy, you can always go back to work ;)
- But I think most people will greatly reduce their output for society. Do you think that on average there will be an increase? I could imagine that some projects might only be realisable by retired and independent people, so that might actually outweigh the decrease. There could be a really fat tailed distribution that makes this good.
  
  You're begging the question, and I mean that in a literal way, it's not an insult. You have assumed a definition of output as something that happens through participation in capitalistic endeavours
  
  This effectively devalues any other form of output. What of the value to society of a grandparent spending more time with their grandchild. What is the value to the grandparent? The child? The parent who can now work extra hours?
  
  There is enormous value to society in spending time with family, growing your own produce, exercising your body and mind etc. but many people sacrifice their ability to do those things for income during part of their lives, and change focus when the means are available
You're still contributing to society just be existing and spending money.
- No, no, you are not. Money doesn't make anything.
  
  It provides the mechanism by which people are motivated to do things. It's like a lubricant for the engine that is society. I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm just saying this artificial store of value is used to motivate productive activities by people.
I've got different moral issues with it, the same as TheButtonJustSpins, but in terms of not providing value I don't think is an issue because

Just because the value you provide to society isn't captured by capitalism in the form of renumeration doesn't mean it isn't valuable. Caring for the sick/injured, volunteering, guerrilla gardening, open source work all provide value even if you're not paid.

I strongly believe that by and large, people want to provide value for others. If you're at the end of FIRE, you're not likely just sitting around drinking alcohol all day. You're probably painting, or helping out a community.

People like to do things they're good at, so they'll probably provide value in a way they're well equipped to do.
- Just because the value you provide to society isn’t captured by capitalism in the form of renumeration doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable
  
  I couldn't agree more. I think equating the value you provide to society entirely to remuneration is sure to backfire.
  
  So much of our salaries are purely dependent on the industry we're in. My job doesn't demand anything particularly special from me - the field as a whole just has a lot of money sloshing around and can afford to let more of it trickle down to me. I could do the same job in another industry, or another location, and get paid 1/3 of my salary.
  
  You could argue that my field has this money because they are providing so much value to society, but I don't think that always holds, at least in the short term. We live in a world of corruption, regulatory capture, investor bubbles etc. - while a market should find an optimal balance in the long run, in the short term I think there's a lot of room to make an outsized salary considering the contribution you actually make, just by being in the right place at the right time.
  
  Is this fair? I don't really think so. But it's all too easy to overthink things and tie yourself up in knots. I just try and live life, have fun and do what I think is right at the time.
  
  I'm in a similar boat, I think of it as "rich people have a lot of money to throw around, so their needs get overemphasized and industries that should be niche become massive."
  
  Markets accommodation is indifferent to usefulness, it cares about money and the larger the wealth gap is, the further those terms become divorced from each other.
Could be argued it is an over surplus of workers that has led to salary imbalances that aren't adequate for a lot of people, since there's so many desperate people in a position where they are willing or forced to take less. Scarcity hasn't been the problem of the labor market, which has led to increased exploitation.
- The problem is that these positions are often not the ones the early retirees are leaving. For those positions there is often a real scarcity. That’s why the salaries for these positions are that high.
Most work is pointless. You don't deprive society of anything by not providing your work. I know I sure as hell won't be making the world a worse place by no longer creating software that helps rich assholes take money from other rich assholes.

EDIT: That said, I do have some moral issues with retiring based on owning stocks. It's not going to stop me, but it does go against my antiwork stance. I don't want to be owning class, even if I'm a little fish in it.
Look at it from the opposite angle, I'm opening up that position for the next person.

I personally never feel like I owe society anything. I'm fortunate to have a well paying job, but that doesn't saddle me with guilt, but instead gratitude. I'm grateful for the opportunities I have, and I try to make the best I can with them. However, I do intend to become very active in causes without any expectation of pay. I also intend to start businesses and whatnot free from the obligation to make money, not because I feel obligated, but because it makes me happy.

Here are some causes I intend to work on:

decentralized applications, like a decentralized (not federated) lemmy

help people get out of debt

make video games

invest in small businesses on very favorable terms

And so on. I expect to be very busy once FI, but I don't be busy with a regular 9-5. I don't want to do it now because I'll need to find a way to profit from it; once FI, profit isn't necessary and perhaps unwanted.
- Thank you for this mindset as someone who works under a person that could easily retire early but won't (which is fine by me, mostly). My career's vertical mobility and associated higher pay is stunted by this, as I do not wish to seek a different employer.
- Did you think about if the decentralised applications will have an impact as high as you are currently providing for society? I would be really careful when evaluating if something does have an impact. If your decentralised platform never has any realistic chance to be adopted by mainstream the impact might be really low. Even for lemmy the impact might not be enough, as it might be too complicated for a normal person.
  
  Making video games and helping small business by investing also seem like they have a low benefit for society and are more to be psychologically fulfilling for the early retiree.
  
  My goal isn't to maximize my beneficial impact on society, it's to not be a burden on society while pursuing things that interest me. The decentralized platform interests me, and it's not going to cause harm.
  
  I could do a lot more, but I don't feel obligated to. Once I'm FI, I'll spend some of my time giving back, and all of my time will be spent on things that interest me.
If society valued my contribution they would give me working conditions that were decent enough that I didn't desperately want to leave. "Society" is currently extracting way more than a fair share of what people like me (on an average wage) produce so that the rich can indulge in excessive consumption. I don't know how you get the idea that everyone who plans to retire early has a valuable skilled profession and high social power. For a lot of people the focus is on extreme frugility to try to scrape enough money together to have some freedom to spend time doing things you find valuable.

Basically yes, I am of the mindset that I don't owe anything to society. I'm "lucky" to have an average wage and not minimum wage I suppose, especially given that the current argument in society is that minimum wage is not supposed to be high enough to support yourself independently. "Society" has been telling me for years that my essential job that they are so grateful to me for doing is also a drain on "taxpayer money" and that I don't deserve pay rises that keep pace with inflation, let alone average wages.
If I leave, I potentially free up a great promotion opportunity for someone on my team, which creates another promotion opportunity, and so on. I would consider that a valuable contribution to many people. Alternatively, they might eliminate my position, which reduces the company's cost, which may save a job or two later by reducing the need for layoffs. I will be happy to make that contribution to my team when I am ready to retire.
I think it should be fairly uncontroversial here to point out that lowering your expenses is good for society in many ways.
I thought this was going to be a question about effective altruism.

Frankly, I don't see my job as being some huge contribution to society. It largely doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
- I’d take this a step further and say I have existential dread when I think of all the talented / smart people that get pulled into my industry and provide very little if any societal good.
I consider my contribution to be teaching and mentoring others in my profession.
I literally couldn't give two shits about some supposed moral obligation to society I may or may not have.

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