Tlaib refuses to apologize for blaming Israel for Gaza hospital blast, attacks Biden

Glad to see somebody that gets it. If one side intentionally slaughters civilians, does the other side get a free pass to do the same? Palestine deserves to be free, but how many civilian adults and children in both Palestine and Israel should be sacrificed upon the altar of war to get it? 500,000? 1,000,000? If someone claims to care about the people and not just the outcome, the answer should be zero. Period. Doesn't matter which side.
Accepting this stance doesn't magically fix the problem in the middle east, like so many trolls are glib to point out, but you can condemn the actions of Hamas and Israel without having a solution to their "thousand year grudge" (which starts with a ceasefire, anyway). I may not know how to fix things, but I know that what's happening is wrong, and that's at least better than the people who think, "[My chosen side] is justified killing [opposing side's] civilians, because they had it done to them!"
Fuck. That.
If Israel stopped fighting tomorrow, what do you think would happen?
Would it get its civilian hostages back?
Or would Hamas just set up another invasion and kill more civilians?
- Defense does not necessitate apartheid or ethnic cleansing.
- If Hamas stops fighting, does Palestine get freedom and self determination?
I'm sorry but I read what you say and it sounds like you and others are taking the easy path of calling for peace while not acknowledging that there is no real way for there to be peace. How can Israel have peace when there is an organization that unequivocally demands their complete destruction. Every call for ceasefire seems simultaneously a call that Israel returns to the status quo of 100s of rockets launched per day and the threat of another invasion and raping of their civilians. What would you have them do? They're a sovereign nation, they simply won't roll over and die because it's convenient for the Middle East. I have so far refused to argue for ceasefire on the belief that Israel is defending itself from an existential threat. I continue to think that's the case and I don't see what's changed. Everyone abhorrs innocents dying, but on my view, a call for ceasefire is a call that Israeli innocents die in place of Palestinians. If innocents are going to die either way, I don't understand why we should not spend that blood trying to destroy Hamas. In the long run, when the numbers are tallied, it may truly be that this would be the quickest way to minimize the death of innocents, yet there are those who offer no solution and demand Israel stop their actions for the sake of innocents, yet make no acknowledgment that many more innocents may end up dying in the long run as a result. If I care about innocents, I don't see how I can support that right now.
- I think the primary issue is that "destroying Hamas" and "killing a hell of a lot of Palestinians" currently has a large overlap and the Israeli mindset of large amounts of collateral damage/death being acceptable is not shared by most of the rest of the world, even though they're experiencing the same on a smaller mindset.
  The pendulum swings the other way and there are absolutely bad faith actors out there (and on here) who have no problem with Israel continuing to take a barrage of rockets on a regular basis, because they either have no skin in the game or genuinely want Israel as an entity to collapse. They aren't helpful here either.
  Historically speaking, land claim issues involved one side stomping out the other. But that's pretty much frowned upon today (not that has stopped Russia but, yeah, that's another topic). This is still the most likely outcome here and will ultimately favor the larger, better funded Israel - it doesn't make it right in any sense, though, but that's frankly just what is going to happen eventually. None of the countries complaining are interested in actually helping the people on the ground in Palestine, on either side, because they are more useful as a political tool if left in the wastes to perish as a symbol
- Apartheid would never end in South Africa. Until it did. Peace would never exist in Northern Ireland. Until it did. The cold war would never end. Until it did. The belief that the situation is unresolvable is the problem
- Yes, the correct thing for them to do is prevent inbound threats without conducting an ethnic cleansing you genocidal freak.
- You think if Hamas violated a ceasefire agreement that people's judgment of them wouldn't change? At all?
  Trolling

I think it's fair criticism . At the very least walk back and reserve judgement until there's more conclusive evidence. But I think until there's better evidence, there should be more respect given to the US intelligence community. It was not long ago trump was criticized for accepting foreign intelligence over the US intelligence community. I think it's fair to criticize tlaib for this as well.

And the thing is, the blame of who bombed the hospital isn't critical to advocating for peace, criticizing unproportial Israeli response, or other pro Palestine messaging.

Here is the available evidence: https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206795861/heres-the-available-evidence-of-what-happened-at-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza
- This is the best I've read on the subject
- I like that they claim it wasn't Israeli because of the lack of shrapnel damage to the buildings... directly under a picture of someone inspecting shrapnel damage on one of the buildings.
But I think until there’s better evidence, there should be more respect given to the US intelligence community
The US intelligence community isn't an objective organization with a mission to inform US citizens of what's really going on in the world. Anything they release is at the direction of political actors and intended to cause some effect. They can be good at their jobs and their released information is still inherently untrustworthy.
- So what is the unbiased source that investigated this faster than the US Intelligence community that was not directly involved in the current conflict?
  Yes, there are blemishes on the US Intelligence's history. But a US Politician should have a little more deference you the US Intelligence Community.
It feels like she is too close to this, and is expressing her passion instead of allowing evidence to be presented. It's gonna look real bad if things don't pan out her way, and she's the one supporting terrorism.
- How would she be supporting terrorism?, she's one of the few in Congress calling for a ceasefire and an end to the violence. Even if she's wrong and islamic jihad were responsible that doesn't mean she accidentally supported them. She said the bombing of the hospital was horrific and unless she changes her tone once she realizes Palestinians did it then this isn't supporting terrorism.
- "if", jesus fucking christ

Its easy and understandable to fall for initial disinformation, but after facts come out sticking to those lies becomes malicious.

From the article:
"Our office cited an AP report yesterday that the IDF had hit a Baptist hospital in Gaza. Since then, the IDF denied responsibility and the US intelligence assessment is that this was not done by Israel," she wrote. "It is a reminder that information is often unreliable and disputed in the fog of war (especially on Twitter where misinformation is rampant). We all have a responsibility to ensure information we are sharing is from credible sources and to acknowledge as new reports come in."
Omar called for a "fully independent investigation to determine conclusively who is responsible for this war crime."
It sounds like she acknowledges Israel probably isn't behind it, but also isn't apologizing for her initial remarks like some Republicans were calling for. The story should probably mention that higher up and more explicitly, rather than burying the lede.
- rather than burying the lede.
  but then we cant farm those juicy outrage page hits.
- also isn’t apologizing for her initial remarks
  I dunno this strikes me as an issue. Like, if a known serial killer is accused of murder for obvious reasons, and we find out they were actually innocent -- we weren't wrong for our initial suspicions and accusation, but we do owe them an apology once all the information is out.
  If you accuse someone who turns out to be innocent, the polite thing to do is apologize for thinking badly of them, however much you were justified in thinking so to start with.
  Omar's comment calling for further investigation is completely appropriate, while Tlaib's refusal to apologize is inappropriate, especially since she conflated the whole thing with being anti Muslim.
There were massive destruction weapons in Iraq. Or not ? How to know who you should believe ?
The left just struggles with separating the sane part from the crazy-democrat-version-of-maga-part. Gotta stick together to show those stupid Republicans who are sticking by their crazy maga crowd.
- Wut.

The US DOD should find the munitions expert who made that bomb with such limited budget seeing how powerful it is and teach the Ukrainian military how to do something similar

It blew up some parked cars and caused a fireball, by no means a powerful blast lol

There's no reason to apologize, if Isreal is so adamant to prove it's innocence let an international investigation open. But they won't because like for the killing of the journalist Shereen AbuAkleh they are guilty.

There's a link above to NPR with the (Al Jazeera?) footage of the missile failing and part of it hitting the parking lot
Then why lie to strengthen your cause if it is already justifiable without the facts being known?
- The ones that have a long track records of lies and deceit are Israeli and US government. History is the witness. I don't need to strengthen the case I want the end of civilians murder, humanitarian aids and international investigation on war crimes such as this.
Israel has shared a whole lot of its intelligence publicly. The explosion occurred in Gaza, wouldn't it be on Hamas to allow an investigation?

So they are not believing the Pentagon's assessment? Or just don't care and going with feels instead?

Pentagon also said Iraq had Weapon of Mass Destruction 🤷‍♂️
- Also said Russia was going to invade Ukraine, and people were skeptical of it for the exact same argument.
  Sometimes they're right. You can't take them as an absolute authority nor always lying. In the broader context, with analysis that other independent groups have done, it seems to me they're telling the truth here.
- True, but different time, different administration, different circumstances. Just because a government lied once doesn't necessarily mean everything they say in the future is a lie, but certainly should be taken with a grain of salt.
- ...and the USS Maddox was struck by the north Vietnamese...
Yeah, I definitely trust the pentagon not to have a motive to lie about it. After all, they've proven to be trustworthy in the past! You gotta support the veterans, they never lie!
- As a former service dog trainer who trained dogs specifically for disabled veterans there's a reason I refuse to talk about the military and how it treats their people.

Who? For the lazy. She's Palestinian as well so the bias is understandable.

A member of the Democratic Party, Tlaib represented districts 6 and 12, respectively, in the Michigan House of Representatives before her election to Congress.[3] In 2018, she won the Democratic nomination for the United States House of Representatives in Michigan's 13th congressional district. She ran unopposed in the general election and became the first woman of Palestinian descent in Congress, the first Muslim woman to serve in the Michigan legislature, and one of the first two Muslim women elected to Congress (the other being Ilhan Omar).[4][5][6] Tlaib is a member of The Squad, an informal group of six (four until the 2020 elections) U.S. representatives on the left wing of the Democratic Party.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashida_Tlaib

The hospital attack was a failed rocket by Islamic Jihad coming from Gaza toward Israel.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-live-updates/biden-says-gaza-hospital-explosion-done-by-the-other-team-as-netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unprecedented-level-of-cooperation-104064882?id=104049894

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/biden-reinforces-support-during-israel-visit-as-hospital-explosion-further-inflames-rage

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-heads-middle-east-inflamed-by-gaza-hospital-blast-2023-10-18/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVH2zBO-EqI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kaRHeJzIr8

At the very least she should recant her statements. There's been enough chaos from it being attributed to Israel that she has a responsibility as a public official to issue a retraction.
Who? You're in a political subreddit. You didn't know who she is?
- Not everyone's American, we don't know your entire portfolio of talking heads.
- ... You know all 435 voting members of the US House of Representatives which she's a part of and 100 Congressman?
  Right lmfao.

She needs to have her bias confirmed. The fog of war is a powerful thing. Unfortunately, her vocalizations do no service for her district.

That's not true, they prove that she has a brain and is trying to use it unlike about 430 of her colleagues
- You can acknowledge that there is uncertainty around who is responsible for the hospital, you can apologize for attributing blame prematurely without confirmation, and still hold Israel accountable for being reckless and disproportional in it's response and call for peace. It's damaging to her reputation and cause to double down on this when more evidence is coming out contrary to her initial claims.
- It's the "everybody is wrong except me" group heard from.

Seems like her heart is in the right place, but I fear peace talks at this time would be unproductive. Neither side can be described as conciliatory.

If not now, when? They've been at this for decades
- I would love to be able to force them to try, as doubtful as such a peace would be. Any ceasefire would be preferable to this.
- Israel's objective is that Hamas no longer exists and that Gaza can no longer pose a security threat to Israel. They won't accept a return to the status quo that just results in more rocket attacks and another wave of attacks years from now.
  I understand wanting to see an end to violence and calling for a ceasefire based on that, but to do so is to de facto support more intentional attacks on Israeli civilians, which Israel is simply not going to allow. The time to discuss the future of Gaza will only come once Hamas and other militias are conclusively out of the picture.
- Hamas's founding charter prohibits them from seeking peace or negotiating at all.
  And they still have 150-200 hostages, mostly civilians.
  The problem is that Hamas exists, and has complete political control over Gaza. There is nobody Israel can talk to, while Hamas is in power, and convince them to return the hostages, stop the rocket fire, etc.
  This is not a problem that can be solved with words.
  The only glimmer of hope, unfortunately, lays on the other side of a complete and total destruction of Hamas in Gaza.
- The thing is that the Islamic Jihad and Hamas don't want to negotiate, since they won't accept a two-state solution, so peace is not possible while any of them has a militarized branch. There are plenty of people in Israel that don't want to negotiate but at least on the Israeli side the only group that needs to stick to the plan is the IDF which will follow the orders they get.

I liked her in her involvement with the progressives… but this is a real bad look. I understand her emotions especially given her Palestinian roots, but she needs to provide evidence if she’s going to use her political platform to rail against the currently accepted explanation of things.

Her initial reaction and statements are completely fair. But as a public official, she needs to issue a retraction and apologize for being incorrect.

I view her the exact same way I view Manchin. They're Dems, and we need more Dems, but I wish I lived in a world where I didn't need them specifically.

It's crazy how quick people are to believe the pentagon with absolutely 0 proof as if they wouldn't lie to protect the side that have massively invested interests in.

please, don't make me take up for Israel.

Israel is asshoe, but if I was captured, I'd rather it be Israel

Nice username dweeb
- thanks

she has nothing to apologise for considering she is right

I’d love to see a source on that proving that she’s right, since you’re so sure and all
- I'd love to see any source right now that could be considered reliable
Listen, I'm on the side of innocent Palestinian civilians as much as the next guy, but Hamas does have a habit of using human shields and putting military equipment near schools/hospitals. Truth is, none of us know truly who shot the missile. The fact that it's actually still being investigated means everyone should stfu

Some of putler's best allies don't even know they are helping him.

Those glasses aren't doing her any favours.

What do you have against the glasses?
- I don't like the glasses.

She's completely unhinged.

Calls for ceasefire so less innocent civilians die...
Called unhinged.
Nice.
- "Democratic Reps. Rashida Tlaib, D-Mich. and Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., said that Israel is to blame for the hospital explosion in Gaza despite Israel denying fault."
  Shes completely unhinged. The facts are irrelevant to her. She will blame and denounce Israel no matter what. She is failing to demonstrate rational thinking.
- No one gives a shit that she's a woman or Muslim. People care that she blindly supports Hamas, an actual fucking terrorist organization, and always assumes that Israel is the problem.