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Has anyone read this book? It seems to suggest a solution to Power-Tripping Bastards...

luminosoa.org University of California Press

<p>When was the last time you participated in an election for an online group chat or sat on a jury for a dispute about a controversial post? Platforms nudge users to tolerate nearly all-powerful admins, moderators, and “benevolent dictators for life.” In <i>Governable Spaces</i>, Nathan Schneider a...

11 comments

  • I'm sure it's wonderful but the issues tend to be more technical than governance. I'm sorry this will be a wall of text, but please trust me it's worth reading. This problem isn't directly solved as easily as just saying "we need to do it differently."

    Even on Lemmy, there isn't a built-in mechanism for coming to consensus other and upvotes/downvotes.

    There isn't a built-in mechanism for elections of moderators or admins. Don't even get me started on how it's basically impossible to do for admins. Lemmy at least has the ability for individuals to say "I don't like these admins, I'm spinning up my own instance... with blackjack... and hookers... in fact forget the instance." The problem being you can't vote out an admin when... the server lives on their property and they can just unplug it... when they're the financial backing of the site... and so on.

    These are major structural problems in how computers and the internet are designed at their backbone. Those same systems bleed into the way our programs work, too.

    The internet is a giant communications hub where flow of data matters, partitioning data matters, and Access Control Lists reign supreme.

    It would require so much more technical background work than almost any programmer has been willing to put forth. Even Tildes, a small, unfederated reddit-esque clone made by the bloke who built reddits Automod is still his own feudal feifdom. He has been working on a "reputation" system for years at this point without any clear path towards real democracy. And this guy started the site having read books exactly like this and having written a ton about the same issues himself. Yet he comes to the same technical conclusions that are basically "As an admin, I am the Emperor of Tildes."

    Somehow, all the people who read these things still end up with the same conclusions: It's my place, follow my rules or get out.

    I've seen exactly one site get it halfway right and that's MetaFilter, and that involved them becoming a non-profit organization and having scheduled elections of board members. The hiring of moderators (who are paid) is still done like a business where you are interviewed and hired and the community doesn't have a ton of input into who gets hired. MetaFilter has been around since 1999 so they've had a lot of time to build this structure, and most of the structure exists outside their technical platform itself, which still relies on admins and moderators top-down controls in individual threads. This is the only site I know of where the site servers itself are legally owned by the non-profit, and thus the community, instead of the admin, Jessamyn, who used to own it directly.

    From the MeFi non-profit changeover document:

    Why is this happening?
    \ For most of its history, the site operated under a single owner/decisionmaker, which was prone to burnout and bottlenecks. A first attempt at reform under a volunteer Steering Committee in 2022 ran into restrictions on volunteerism under the for-profit LLC. Jessamyn decided to pursue a transition to a different structure that would be better suited to community governance. There’s a series of posts on MetaTalk that show all the posts and information as it happened, under the tag MeFiNonProfit; just start from the bottom.

    The only reason MeFi was able to achieve this, in my opinion, is having a very invested community for 20+ years. Our community on Lemmy has barely started, and it doesn't include roadblocks for trolls like MeFi does (it costs $5 to open a MeFi account, tying your account to a payment card). How do we ensure our users are actually invested in our communities when it's a free for all to make as many throwaway accounts as you want? (or even worse, spinning up your own server and making hundreds of fake accounts flooding the fediverse)

    It's going to take a literal fucking technical genius to build a new system that's not like that. The Mastodon/Lemmy developers are quality programmers, but they are not geniuses creating new types of consensus systems within their technical kingdoms. No, they all still want a level of control over what happens on what they would call "their property." (That' the other aspect, how much is built on property law and the fact that you can own a server.)

    As I said, probably a great book, but the real issue is every new system being built with the same old top-down admin > mod > user breakdown. Until the technology adapts to a more democratic structure, we can't actually escape this problem and it doesn't seem like Schneier's book is laying out how we can program these new structures other than a seeming reliance on blockchain... which seems superfluous.

    • Thank you for all this insight into the problem. I guess it's a shame that it's admin > mod > user although I guess if it's the admins paying for the server it makes sense that they don't want to lose complete control over what goes on in it (which community governance (=democracy) would achieve). Perhaps this would be alleviated if only paying members could vote (like at MeFi I suppose)... but then you'd still have the friction of having to found a nonprofit for it, and the legal work of doing that is not something that the average person, or even geek, knows how to do.

  • If you're going to tag your title, Do it like [this] or like #this. Clients like tesseract correctly parse and display such tags in their interface.

11 comments