How some of the post-federation Ukraine threads feel like
How some of the post-federation Ukraine threads feel like
116 comments
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I have found that liberals really, really, hate being exposed as equals to republicans.
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I hope I don't get castrated for this by everyone here but I'm genuinely curious so I'm going to ask. For coxtext, I'm a dirty commie retard hippie dick suckin left wing lib (not a meme, I am literally a Liberal Democrat). Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to ask someone who disagrees with me why they think that supporting Ukraine is a bad move? The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets. Sure it's costing the US (and other countries) a lot of money and resources but we are essentially weakining a not-so-friendly country of ours without having to send our own troops to fight it. Why is this a bad thing? Should I not care if Russia gets more powerful than it already is? Am I retarded?
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The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets.
Why is the weakening of one of the few countries willing and able to challenge American unipolar hegemony a good thing from your perspective?
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Snark free answer:
We believe that the expansion of the American empire is one of the greatest threats facing the world today. The strength and reach of America far surpasses anything that Russia could ever hope to achieve. Russia is only a fraction of the political and economic power of America.
We don't like Russia. It is a neoliberal and reactionary state (like Ukraine). But we do not accept the idea that blood should be shed to weaken an "unfriendly" (read: designated target) state in service of maintaining American supremecy in the area via NATO.
Tldr; why is the US supporting Ukraine a bad move? Because it supports US global supremacy.
Snark:
Liberal Democrat
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I appreciate the answer, if you don't mind me asking, are you American? If so, it just seems strange to me that you don't want your own country to be a strong political and economic power. If you're not an American, then that's an understandable opinion to have. It's possible I'm misunderstanding the theme of this instance.
And also:
Tldr; why is the US supporting Ukraine a bad move? Because it supports US global supremacy.
I disagree with this because it isn't only the US that is aiding Ukraine, it's NATO.
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you are cheering for throwing real human people into the meat grinder because it will cause negligible wear on the meat grinder's parts. Isn't that absolutely horrible? Ukraine sucks, Russia sucks, nothing comes of war between them but suffering for the innocent people who have absolutely no agency in the matterThe way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets
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I want you to look at the words "supporting Ukraine" then look at the rest of the paragraph you said after it. Especially the "why is this a bad thing?" part. Compare that question to the rest of what you just said. Really consider the words you typed.
Now tell me if that actually sounds like you "support Ukraine" at all, or if you've just fallen for the same Jingoistic propaganda the US uses to justify all its wars and foreign intervention. Dead Ukrainians are not supported Ukranians. If you actually support Ukraine, you should push for peace, not more weapons to be sold to their government.
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That's actually a fair point. To be totally honest, for me personally, I'm not exactly for Ukraine as much as I'm against Russia, if that makes sense. However, I do recognize that Ukraine got unfairly invaded by another country, and they should defend themselves.
If you actually support Ukraine, you should push for peace, not more weapons to be sold to their government.
I want peace, but not if that means Russia takes Ukraine against their will by force.
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Russia invaded their country with a military with the intent of taking land. What would peace look like?
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Don't use the R-word ever again, if that's what that last word you tried to post was.
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I'm a dirty commie
I am literally a Liberal Democrat
wow this place sucks now
Death to America
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The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets.
The way you see it is filtered through 30 layers of western media whose interests are presenting Russia as both weak and about to collapse (for almost a year) but still strong enough that if it wasnt for NATO they would steamroll all of Europe.
In reality while economically Russia might not be doing that good (mostly thanks to the neoliberal ghouls in the central bank), militarily they are really not giving their all in the Ukraine conflict, i dont even think they are halfassing things. This is presented as weakness in western media.
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I'd like to ask someone who disagrees with me why they think that supporting Ukraine is a bad move?
I don't think the Ukrainian state as it is is worth supporting. It's not this bastion of democracy and freedom the western media pretends it is, it's a shitty corrupt oligarchy same as Russia.
The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets.
I don't care about Russia getting weaker at all tbh. I'd much rather see the west greatly weakened than Russia as they are the bigger threat to world peace and prosperity.
The reason I'm against the west helping Ukraine is they're clearly not helping them win the war, just prolong it. I'd much rather the war end right now with Russia (probably) getting the bigger piece of the cake as it stops the meat grinder on both sides. It's not because I give a shit about Russia winning, it's about stopping the killing. I don't believe people living in the war-torn area would be much better off under Russia or Ukraine as both states suck shit anyway, so stopping the killing is the best they're gonna get for the time being.
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1st. we would only castrate you if you wanted free SRS for gender affirming care
2nd. we are all liberals here (this is a joke, we're commies, anarchists, and socialists)
3rd. i support the civilians of donbas and the surrounding area, who were bombed after America couped the geopolitically neutral government of Ukraine in favor of an anti-Russia government. being geopolitically neutral was a very obviously good take for the whole country, now their economy is in shambles and the average person on both sides in donbas are having a terrible time. ukraine is unlikely to recover to or go beyond its pre-1991 economy at this rate.
for context, im a czech communist and believe slavic countries should at minimum have a freedom of movement agreement, though preferably i think we should be one country, we have so many tiny countries that are prone to being bullied, couped, and imperialized by foreign powers such as america. we all speak relatively similar languages, its very easy to learn enough of another slavic language to be able to have a shared vocabulary with anyone
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You can just say youre a liberal. We're literally communists (and socialists and anarcists of various tendencies). You arent left wing. You support capitalism and the US. You support the US hegemonic global order, and its imperial exploitation of periphery nations.
We don't because we are actually communists. We support the global working class against the global ruling class. We stand against the US hegemonic order whether we are American or not, because we have an internationalist perspective.
And Russia is not being made weaker. The US shorterm gains have mostly been against their European vassals who have been made weaker as a result of this conflict. The US saw them getting more independent by having ties to the Russian Federation and buying they're oil. The US was able to shut that down and poach companies from investing in Europe to move invesrment to the US instead due to the energy crisis.
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The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets.
We support the concept of multipolarity. We believe that that the US/NATO being the sole, dominant world hegemon is a bad thing. One big reason why we think that is because developing countries have suffered greatly under the neocolonialist policies of the World Bank and IMF, but they've been forced to accept whatever deal they're offered in order to have the market access needed to survive. In a multipolar world, these countries would have more options, and would have more ability to play major powers against each other.
We also oppose capitalism. Both the US and Russia are capitalist countries, so we oppose both of them, but we consider the US to be the higher priority, because it is more powerful. We do not believe that the interests advanced by the US government and bourgeoisie are consistent with the interests of the American people.
Sure it's costing the US (and other countries) a lot of money and resources but we are essentially weakining a not-so-friendly country of ours without having to send our own troops to fight it.
The lives of Americans are not worth more than the lives of Ukrainians, or Russians for that matter. We want a swift end to the war, because, uhh, we value human life. Ukraine has been completely unwilling to negotiate or consider any territorial concessions, but realistically that's likely to happen whether we keep throwing people into a meat grinder for the next 20 years or not.
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How does Russia get weaker? Their trade with the rest of BRICS has been skyrocketing, their technology is actually getting developed for once, and the country is more unified than ever. All this war has done is decouple the Russian economy from the European one, which, sure, isn't ideal, but that's already happened.
Now? The EU is more dependent on the US, and Russia is more dependent on China/India rather than the EU. Globalization is backsliding, and that's dangerous because globalization is what kept the peace after the Cold War.
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in 5 years, after like 5% of the shady shit done for american empire in this theater comes to light from some wikileak, every lib weasel will be claiming they didn't support this proxy war and they were lied to. but they will be viciously calling for some "multi-lateral" (aka US, UK, EU) blood-letting police action in west africa to liberate the uranium mines.
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Imagine a conman rips you off a dozen times. It's always the same scheme, too. The same conman comes to you again with the same scheme and says "but this is a legitimate business proposition!"
Even if you do your due diligence (which you did all those other times, right?) and it looks above board, you have to realize that trusting him yet again makes you a fucking rube.
116 comments
“No-n-no, it’s different this time because—because—because—“
“In culture war crap, we tend to align! Yeah it’s for different reasons! I’m only for or against something because the people I hate decided it’s a new front!”
I swear they just do Ukraine support out of a culture war thing because 2016 elections, Russia and Trump.
Abandoning the idea that Russia buying a relatively miniscule amount of ads on social media/running bot farms swayed the 2016 election would mean that liberals would have to confront the idea that Trump won in 2016 b/c the country is actually more racist than they thought it was.
... because this time the US is backing Ukraine against the aggressor, whereas in 2004 it was the aggressor?
so when Victoria Nuland picked Ukraine's new government after instigating a coup and they killed ~16,000
civilianspeople in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 those were friendly, non-aggressive artillery shells?Hmm I wonder if anything interesting happened in Ukraine in for example 2014. Nothing in particular comes to mind.
Ты придурок.
Russia is the aggressor in this war, and it's bad that they invaded.
Russia invaded Ukraine in response to continued US policy of bringing countries near Russia's borders into NATO, a military treaty organization that Russia had tried to join but was barred from. Not acting would mean that Russia becomes increasingly encircled by military bases of a hostile superpower.
The Ukrainians are the victims in a proxy war between two much larger powers. For the average Ukrainian, sooner the war is over, the better. Somehow repelling the invasion would be ideal, but every day of fighting destroys lives and homes.
US policy in response to the invasion is to send military hardware to Ukraine, enriching its arms manufacturers and prolonging the conflict. They make the Ukrainian government pay for this by forcing the privatization of their government assets at bargain prices (note how this website exists and is fully translated to English). The actual fighting is still done by Ukrainians, who die for this.