Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.
It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
You're viewing part of a thread.
Nope!
Go and open an account on lesswrong then, you have such amazing potential to be among the greatest minds.
but as I pointed out, such notions aren't limited to statutory interpretation, as the cooperative principle of communications advise on the avoidance of ambiguity. If you're not saying things with a goal toward being understood, that's fine.
Least pretentious redditor. Its still an appeal to commonsense to insist on a liberal worldview as being the "unambiguous" way to understand Isntreal.
I'm trying to help you understand why your original comment was removed as an accidental call for ethnic cleansing. Obviously I'm failing at that goal but this isn't some debate where I'm trying to score goals with some audience.
I don't care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
Israel is universally considered to be within the extension of state in the academic community, in the general public, and by 85% of the government in the UN.
....But not on hexbear.net where we all know that it isn't real.
In terms of "the academic community and the general public" that really depends on which country you are referring to. Of course in the west the public recognizes isntreal as legitimate because of propaganda and brainwashing, like how everyone supports capitalism. However, I doubt the "academic community" and "general public" in Palestine recognize the validity of the cancer currently resting on their stolen lands. Fuck the UN in particular because they created this entire mess in the first place.
The problem with Israeli is the act of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, not some ontological evil essence nonsense.
"Bro ackshualalflasflasflsaflly isntreal wasnt in fact created with the express purpose of being a genocidal settler state thats just ontological evil essence nonsense bro."
The problem with isntreal is that it is a settler colonial project whose very creation and continued existence was/is contingent on mass murder and ethnic cleansing. They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
This thread is a week old, no one else is here.
I've already reported some of the shit you said to our mods btw they will be here soon. If they don't come then I will call our most terminally online users and dogpile your yudowsky-lite ass for Zionism apologia.
I don't care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
Then what are we talking about?
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
It was understood to be, by several people. Once again you're doing this essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel. They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
Then what are we talking about?
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
You answered your own question.
It was understood to be.
Why do I care? Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
If I make some idiot craps their pants because they have a liberal worldview that shouldn't be my problem, especially not on this site where I thought we all shared the same leftist worldview that settler colonial soycieties necessitate utter destruction in their nascent form or else there will be massive, tragic genocide like what happened to the native americans, what could have happened to all of eastern europe, and what is currently happening in what remains of sovereign Palestine.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation. I now understand that its another argument in the arsenal of zionist apologia that the liberals have.
They do exist and are currently geocoding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
My son, the existence of Isntreal itself is a genocide. Look at the map I shared earlier, you cant just go to another country and tell the inhabitants "ok guys im going to start an ethnostate here, move or i kill you". Its fucking settler colonialism, isntreal needs to be destroyed for the genocide to "stop".
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel.
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
Haha, clearly.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation, I know that you don't intend to convey a call for ethnic cleansing and have stated that multiple times. The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
No? That hasn't gotten anything to do with pointing out that 'right to exist' and 'actual existence' are entirely separate concepts, with a 'right to exist' being literally immaterial. Israel has no right to exist, no legitimate claim to existence, nothing like any of that, and yet exists all the same and leverages that existence to continue to genocide the Palestinians. You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Hurr no you're the one with no grip on reality because you dont follow the CNN line!
Ok keep denying a genocide then.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation
I've already demonstrated that you haven't engaged with over 90% of what I wrote because you're a candidate for lesswrong's membership. Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal, akin to america and nazi germany, due to the material necessities of its birth and continued existence. I was not born yesterday moron.
The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding of isntreal and its creation as a settler colonial project of genocide. Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Are you stupid? Israel isnt real because it has no legitimacy as a state, its one giant administrative region for a slaughterhouse of human beings. That is what it means to be a settler colonial project. Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state and that Palestinians lost the land fair and square. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.
Me: They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians
You: Keep denying genocide then
I've already demonstrated that you haven't engaged with over 90% of what I wrote
We're both tugging at selective threads of the conversation based on our goals for it, cause I'm still waiting on that census data of Gazan jews from you.
Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal
I didn't ignore it, I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some 'essence' of Israel.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding
That's not what bad faith means. That's just being wrong.
Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
I've probably said 15 times that Israeli has consistently engaged in settler-colonialism and genocide, and that such settler-colonialism and genocide even predated the establishment of the state of Israel.
selective threads of the conversation
You're conveniently ignoring my main point but ok.
I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some 'essence' of Israel.
Im not making any soy claims about the "essence" of Isntreal. The fucking material reality on the ground is that it could not have existed without a massive genocide. The very notion of "israel" necessitates land stolen and people removed from Palestine. Just like america and nazi germany before it. This is why it needs to be destroyed. Its a deeply unjust situation and im fucking shocked that you think that mass loss of life and land theft to create an ethnostate is "metaphysical drivel".
That's not what bad faith means. That's just being wrong.
The individual was not operating in "bad faith" but the argument is a bad faith argument due to its dishonest presuppositions rooted in Zionist apologia.
Israeli has consistently engaged in settler-colonialism and genocide
Because they are a settler colonial project, not a proper nation. You don't get it, the creation of Isntreal itself was an act of settler-colonialism and genocide.
As I said:
"Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state that shouldnt immediately be militarily opposed by every country on the planet if they had a sense of justice. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs."
You're conveniently ignoring my main point but ok.
Your main point to me seems to be that 'Israeli' should be understood to mean 'settler' before anything else. I've expressed at length that this runs the risk of being interpreted in an alarming fashion, and for a little more effort, this can be avoided. You don't seem to care about that. Which sure, that's fine.
Is that not your main point?
Im not making any soy claims about the "essence" of Isntreal.
Well then don't use phrases like 'original sin'
Original sin is the Christian doctrine that holds that humans, through the fact of birth, inherit a tainted nature with a proclivity to sinful conduct in need of regeneration.
im fucking shocked that you think that mass loss of life and land theft to create an ethnostate is "metaphysical drivel".
I don't, I've accurately described those actions as genocide, repeatedly.
I don't
v.s.
"I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some 'essence' of Nazi Germany as fundamentally genocidal".
Pick one you smug liberal piece of dog shit.
Your main point to me seems to be that 'Israeli' should be understood to mean 'settler' before anything else.
And that isntreal itself is a cancer on the world that needs to be treated with the same military and cultural response that nazi germany did in the 20th century.
*also it isn't "should be" but "is", this is an important distinction because I don't recognize it as a sovereign state since this implies a dismissal of Palestine's sovereignty and a
n acceptancedismissal of their genocide /*as a natural state of affairsWell then don't use phrases like 'original sin'
I fucking know what it means you pedantic cuck. I thought it would be a convenient shorthand as a way of conveying the material nature of isntreal's creation and existence but nvm.
runs the risk of being interpreted in an alarming fashion,
By people with a liberal worldview who I would have never thought to encounter as users of this site but that was clearly a wrong assumption.
and for a little more effort, this can be avoided
"All israelis must leave" is fucking crystal clear because it the literal reality on the ground that israel is a settler colonial project that is in the same vein as nazi germany and america before it. If people have a stupid liberal worldview then fuck them I don't care. 90% of the site agrees with me and thought OP was an idiot.
There's no contradiction to pick through. Nazi Germany can and was opposed without having to sift through the metaphysical fluff of whether or not they 'happened to be' or 'must have been' evil genocidal maniacs. And further, neither you nor I believe that the US and Britain opposed Nazi Germany because it was "ontologically evil". Their concerns and opposition were pragmatic. Heck, even the KPD offered pragmatic support for the German Nazi party in one of the biggest accelerationist self-owns in history.
90% of the site agrees with me and thought OP was an idiot.
No one believed that anyone had made any ethnic cleansing calls, and when I linked to yours as an example. Everyone's response was 'oh yeah, you gotta report that shit', and it was deleted as a [accidental] call for ethnic cleansing.
Palestine's sovereignty and an acceptance dismissal of their genocide /*as a natural state of affairs
Natural state of affairs? Nonsense. Actual state of affairs, as in the state of Israel is using state apparatus to actually genocide actual Palestinians? Undeniable.
Nazi Germany can and was opposed without having to sift through the metaphysical fluff of whether or not they 'happened to be' or 'must have been' evil genocidal maniacs.
Because they literally were??? Like fucking Isntreal??? *I dont see why you say that calling a spade a spade is "metaphysical fluff" like cmon, its fucking undeniably evil to commit genocide.
And further, neither you nor I believe that the US and Britain opposed Nazi Germany because it was "ontologically evil". Their concerns and opposition were pragmatic.
I was referring to the people of the Soviet Union and its neighbors opposing it because it was an evil cancer eating their lands and killing their people in concentration camps.
Everyone's response was 'oh yeah, you gotta report that shit', and it was deleted as a [accidental] call for ethnic cleansing.
Everyone's response was 'oh yeah, you gotta report that shit',
Everyone's response
Stupid, stupid rat bastard.
Natural state of affairs? Nonsense.
If you acknowledge the statehood of isntreal then you imply that invading another sovereign country with a foreign force to commit genocide and land theft is a valid way to create a nation.
You're like one of those pretentious wannabe academic types who thinks that using a bunch of random factoids to unintentionally run "muh nuance" apologetics for the status quo is being smart.