America Deserved 9/11 Megathread
America Deserved 9/11 Megathread
Get in here chapos! Any memes, rants, quips, jokes you have, let's fuckin hear them! That shit is funny.
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the "janitors in the building" - all salt-of-the-earth anti-imperialists I'm sure - are such a patsoc chestnut. if america deserved 9/11 then americans deserved 9/11, period.
imo it seems like a lot of american leftists are just nervous about them and their lib friends being held to account by the rest of the world starting to sharpen its pitchforks
I prefer james connolly's vibe
Let us say that we are sick of the canting talk of those who tell us that we must not blame the British people for the crimes of their rulers against Ireland. We do blame them.
Call me a ::lib:: but I just can't make the jump to each individual deserved to die.
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War is hell. Innocent people die or have their lives ruined. 9/11 is just a taste of what’s coming to amerikkka. I live here with my family and I don’t like it, but if it’s necessary to liberate the planet from imperialism, then so be it.
I don't really even disagree with this sentiment, it is more the positive attitude towards the death of people, and the implication that it is deserved by all people in america regardless of any individual actions that make me uncomfortable.
One of the main reasons I am a leftist is a strong desire to see human lives saved and improved, and the issue of who must, should, and will die for the improvement of society is always an issue that brings me a lot of cognitive dissonance. I can't revel in it like some people seem to.
Literally nobody here has a positive attitude towards the death of innocent people. 9/11 stopped being about that when it was weaponized to illegally invade and terrorize sovereign nations. Now it's just a symbol of the US' peerless narcissism such that having to endure any hardship at all is license to do whatever you want to whoever you want for as long as you want all while acting like you're the victim.
I'm not trying to defend how 9/11 has been handled, your description of it is accurate. It is simply a topic that leads to these kinds of conversations, and this was the thread I decided to ask about it in.
I understand, I'm just correcting an allegation you made that we have a positive attitude towards the death of people
I guess this is what I notice right away:
positive attitude towards the death of people
desire to see human lives saved
glossing every nation and class as "people" or "human lives" is falling for the trick that liberalism tries to pull to make us feel equal even when we're really not. historically it's ideology that the bourgeoisie introduced to break down non-meritocratic aristocracies without endangering their own material situation. "we're all equal so no more hereditary titles. but oh you want to expropriate the kulaks? you want to guillotine your ceo? we're all equal though, they're people and we all have the same inalienable rights." actually, there are still oppressors and oppressed, and that contradiction can't be papered over forever with bourgeois appeals to common humanity
also:
deserved by all people in america regardless of any individual actions
I strongly disagree that there are no individual actions making ordinary americans morally responsible for the atrocities committed in our names
every day people take steps to deliberately materially support empire. we lavish support on troops and veterans, we hang up american flags, we carry water for our brands, we vote for cops and war criminals. and it only takes a 9/11 to unleash oceans of latent racism and bloodlust. even people who dislike americanism still passively sit and enjoy the fruits of imperialism because almost all of us are doing well compared to our victims and we naturally don't see it in our interest to violently equalize things. in fact socialists have so little idea of how to sell the american people on becoming as poor as everyone else that we're basically uncritical of patsoc lines about how americans could be even more prosperous under socialism!
even the anti-war pb, millennial hippies, the socialists, apolitical people, etc can't really escape culpability. in his introduction to fanon's wretched, sartre was pretty unsparing toward oh-so-compassionate protesters who enjoyed the fruits of empire but declined to actually kill anyone to shatter the status quo:
The pacifists are a fine sight: neither victims nor torturers! Come now! If you are not a victim when the government you voted for, and the army your young brothers served in, commits “genocide,” without hesitation or remorse, then you are undoubtedly a torturer. And if you choose to be a victim, risking one or two days in prison, you are simply trying to take the easy way out. But you can’t; there is no way out. Get this into your head: if violence were only a thing of the future, if exploitation and oppression never existed on earth, perhaps displays of nonviolence might relieve the conflict. But if the entire regime, even your nonviolent thoughts, is governed by a thousand-year-old oppression, your passiveness serves no other purpose but to put you on the side of the oppressors.
You know full well we are exploiters. You know full well we have taken the gold and minerals and then oil from the “new continents,” and shipped them back to the old metropolises. Not without excellent results in the shape of palaces, cathedrals, and centers of industry; and then when crisis loomed, the colonial markets were there to cushion the blow or divert it. Stuffed with wealth, Europe granted humanity de jure to all its inhabitants: for us, a man means an accomplice, for we have all profited from colonial exploitation.
I've thought about this response for a while and come to the conlusion that the desire for the preservation of human life is closer to the core of my identity than much else in this conversation, and I'd rather happily and enthusiastically refer to myself as a liberal than give that up. I'll find a place other than hexbear to browse, and thank you for the response.
if it's any consolation most of the people on this site disagree with me
You're more than welcome here. It's uncomfortable stuff but the destruction of where you and your family exist could come about to make it better. To be carried out by an entity that you could contribute to, with violence only being carried out against the most stubborn reactionaries, allowing for a redistribution of resources in a much fairer way. Of course that's not what 9/11 was, but if every Hexbear poster was asked if they'd rather push the big red button on the US that turns it communist or into a crater, everyone but the dolphin people would turn it communist. Then it would (hopefully) be people like you that would make up the spearhead of change.
I'm an american too. The fact of the matter is, you and I are much, much more likely to be killed by a domestic chud than by the global proletariat. Our government has shown they don't give a shit whether we live or die (see covid causing a 9/11 of death a day for awhile, and the tepid governmental response).
So I just don't think it matters that people vent about how awful america is and sometimes take that venting to the extreme of saying "every american deserves to die". Like, obviously that's not true, but also? Who cares. The people saying "death to america (and americans)" are not the people who are going to kill us. We've got that handled domestically.
I'm not trying to change the behavior of anyone here, I'm trying to decide if I should be participating here. And as for "who cares" I do, I don't want to read more death wishes in my casual online reading time because, as you pointed out, I have enough of that locally.
I guess I'd just say that you should try not to read them as death wishes, because I don't think they really are that. It's more venting taken a little too far. I know for a fact that some of the people posting these kinds of things do not want me dead, and I know this because I've seen them in other contexts say things about how quite a few americans actually can be comrades and do not, in fact, deserve the wall.
Obviously, don't participate on hexbear if you don't want to or if it's bad for your mental health or anything. Keep yourself as safe and comfy as you can online, there's nothing wrong with that.
But know that people on hexbear (for the most part) don't actually hate us and want us dead just because of where we happened to be born. It can come across like that sometimes, but it isn't true.
Like Fidel said (i think), I have nothing but love for the people of the United States.
nobody deserved to die on 9/11, but the people of the world don't deserve the consequences of American foreign policy either.
but the people of the world don't deserve the consequences of American foreign policy either.
I sure do feel that. I think that's been my biggest, I don't know what to call it, shift of perspective, maybe. I've realized that the us is fundamentally evil and a force for evil in the world at large. Our government isn't making little oopsies because they tried so hard to do good and just kind of fucked up a little. That is not what our history is. It's a history of inflicting misery on the rest of the world in order to prop up our empire. The us needs to lose all its power, sooner rather than later. Is that going to suck for those of us who live here? Yeah, probably. Although even then, who is it going to suck for? Those who are doing ok right now. Not the many, many people who are already suffering under our government that doesn't care if we live or die, as long as the rich keep getting richer.
I don't know, I might delete this later. I've been feeling maudlin and like we already live in a cyberpunk dystopia recently, it just doesn't hit everyone equally. I'm also a bit drunk.
I went for a walk around a lake yesterday, and only saw middle class white people living their comfortable lives. Then I walked back to my apartment building and saw suffering and misery and poverty. Why is the lake path only for comfortable middle class white people? Why are the miserable poor people not going for walks around the lake? It's easy walking distance, and a lovely area, so why? Maybe it has something to do with the 7 cop cars I saw between my apartment and the lake, 2 of them just idling at corners.
The vibes are all off in america, and I've just commented half an essay at you about it. I'm sorry.
sometimes the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism seems designed to make us sad, like that Disco Elysium quote.One can organize, preferably with a mindset of revolutionary optimimism, one can go
or at least take the 
We don't owe it to
to beat ourselves up over things we have no practical control over, at least try not to do it for too long.