The enlightened non-“Tankies” be like
The enlightened non-“Tankies” be like
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You didn't ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.
The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin's reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don't know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin's policies and actions. I don't know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.
I don't understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there's that.
I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
By trying to paint the Soviet Union as genocidal, you are denying the Holocaust. Simple as.
Woof, that's some leap.
A 'leap' made by literal jewish Holocaust scholars.
That's right bark again you fucking lapdog for the establishment.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin's policies and actions.
And the dust bowl was the direct result of the US governments policies and actions, so why is only one of them "a thing that happened," you raging hypocrite?
Are you capable of reading and processing information? Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe. Nevermind that it's thousands vs millions of people. Did you notice where I talked about the larger pattern in the USSR? There wasn't just one famine, but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Are you capable of reading and processing information?
Are you?
Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe.
Point to where I mentioned the Great Depression.
Nevermind that it's thousands vs millions of people.
What methodology did you use to determine your numbers? And why would it matter anyway? Is it not a genocide if it's bellow a certain amount?
There wasn't just one famine
Yes there was, unless you're counting the one caused by the Nazis flattening half of it, in which case I'm just going to write you off as a Nazi apologist.
but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Yes, that is indeed true of the USA, so why is the Dust Bowl "Just a thing that happened", but the famine that happened in the same time period in the USSR not?
I'm all ears, buddy. Paint me the picture of this dust bowl genocide. My mind is open. Convince me.
You know that picture you paint of the holodomer? it's literally just that, but the USA.
Let's see. 34 countries and the EU consider the Holodomor (check your spelling btw) a genocide.
I can find... well, you, and nothing else claiming the dust bowl is a genocide.
34 countries and the EU consider the Holodomor (check your spelling btw) a genocide.
Interesting; and when did they make this entirely non-political determination?
Also, that leaves 161 countries that don't consider it a genocide. Oh, but let me guess:
I can find... well, you, and nothing else claiming the dust bowl is a genocide.
I didn't realize that whether something was a genocide or not was decided by vote.
It's not not a vote. It's a classification; they tend to not have perfect clear boundaries, and so one goes with the prevailing opinion of experts.
But let's forget the term "genocide". In the USSR, millions of people were intentionally killed for no good reason. That's fucked.
It's not not a vote. It's a classification; they tend to not have perfect clear boundaries, and so one goes with the prevailing opinion of experts.
Which you didn't do, you instead tried to act like the votes of white European countries were the determinants.
But let's forget the term "genocide".
No, you used it, stand by it.
So, if I got into my government and made them recognise the dust bowl as a genocide, does that make it a genocide? Do countries‒who care a lot more about politics than the truth‒get to say what is and isn't a genocide?
Okay, how about the guy who coined the term?
Raphael Lemkin (a pioneer of genocide studies[79]: 35 who coined the term genocide, and an initiator of the Genocide Convention), James Mace, Norman Naimark, and Timothy Snyder have written that the Holodomor was a genocide and the intentional result of Soviet policies under Stalin.
Wikipedia as a source. Amazing.
Here's a challenge; find an academic work written by a serious historian after the opening of the Soviet archives that considers the 32-33 Soviet famine to be a deliberate genocide.
And while you're at it, go back and answer 新星's question, which you are still dodging.
Also, didn't you say you weren't interested in arguing about definitions?
Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))
Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)
The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source
Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.
Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?
Nice whataboutism. But fuck it, I'll bite. A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn't hit on it.
Let's play a game. I'm going to call it, "can we agree on some basic facts?"
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens. True or false?
funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.
I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens.
False.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml, would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?
I'm okay. Sorry.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
Fair, but this is just kind of a thing we do with language.
If we can't agree that millions of people in the USSR were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during Stalin's leadership, then I'm not sure there's anything worth discussing.
Similarly, the article you linked about 7 million US deaths in the great depression doesn't even take itself seriously. It's just trying to discredit counts for deaths in the Holodomor. I suspect you don't think that many people died as a result of the great depression, and, if you're not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.
Finally, there is no need for name-calling. While I do not consider "lib" nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.
If we can't agree that millions of people in the USSR were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during Stalin's leadership
Can we agree that millions of people in the USA were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during FDR's leadership?
I suspect you don't think that many people died as a result of the great depression
And do you think that people died during the Holodomor?
Thanks for finishing where I couldn’t, comrade.
I would suggest we shouldn’t, even arguing with libs, refer to the Soviet famine that way, since it gives credence to Holocaust denial.
Good point, will avoid it in future.
if you’re not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.
Unfortunately, I'm suspecting that whatever your sources are similarly aren't arguing in good faith, but since you won't provide them, I can't know for sure.
While I do not consider “lib” nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.
I don't intend it as an insult, but if you're actually a socialist, I apologize. I hope though if you were, that you might consider that the US has a clear bias against socialism, so it's pretty hard to consider it a trustworthy source on this matter at face value. There's not a neutral party, but we should at least consider what the other side is saying instead of just blindly accepting the US government narrative.
A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn't hit on it.
So you're denying genocide now.