"If you didn't want fascism you should have voted!"

Pretending Democrats aren't corporatists is just dishonest at this point.

boring corporatists just committed genocide

The "boring corporatists" in germany put Hitler in power btw

"boring corporatists" are destroying our planet and making it unlivable.

So do 100% concentrated evil, but they also wipe their arses with the constitution, set up concentration camps, and literally ruin the political and economic position of the US.
- Why didn't the "boring corporatists" shut down the concentration camps when they were in power?
  It's because we have the Nazi party and the Nazi collaborator party. And somehow voting for the latter is just.
- The constitution of burgerland is actually intended for wiping your ass. Stop making the republicans look good
- The democrats also set up concentration camps. And the US uses its political and economic position to commit genocide, ruining it is a good thing
- An unlivable planet is worse than all those things
  
  They are also doing that too.
  
  Thanks for agreeing with me that on the biggest most important issues both sides are the same
  
  Are you conflating corporatism and concentration camps because they start with the same letter or are you really this fucking stupid?
  
  Concentration camps have been a thing for most of the US' existence, have become super widespread in recent decades (as in, the children in cages) and they're completely bipartisan. At one point, there were twice as many children detained under Biden than at Trump's highest.
  You might not have known it until now (doubtful) but if I know democrats, you're gonna handwave it away even though you no longer have that excuse. Democrats are no more than the left wing of fascism and so is anyone who treats these abuses as irrelevant distractions from the real issues, that is, the comforts of white people.
  
  Ruining the planet for everyone is worse than anything else and on that issue both sides are the same
  
  It'll be ruined much faster with the red party in control. I guess we are gonna speed run the decline thanks to people like you.
  
  The irony of Biden approving more drilling and selling more protected land than any other president in history makes this comment so freaking funny.
  Sure Trump is trying to best Biden on that front, but the fact that a Democrat already had that mantel at all and you have the nerve to comment this is just peak.
  
  If the only options are to keep ruining the world at a steady pace or speed it up then we're cooked anyway (literally)
  
  Driving off the cliff at 95 mph vs. 100 mph, and trying to argue there's a difference
  
  More like driving off with your foot on the gas pedal vs driving off with your foot on the brake.
  At least one option has a chance of stopping you from going off the cliff. The other just wants to guarantee you get thrown off the edge.
  
  If you can't see the difference between a centrist party and a far-right fascist one, then I hold no hope for your political literacy going forward.
  
  I can see that Biden held twice children at the border at one time than Trump at his highest. I can see that weapons and money to Israel skyrocketed under Biden. I can see that Obama alone prosecuted more whistleblowers than the US had prosecuted in its entire history.
  If you only count it as fascism when it starts affecting white people half as much as it was affecting the rest of us then you can't be surprised we consider you just as much of a fascist as them.
  
  Biden held twice children at the border at one time than Trump at his highest
  In your own source it very clearly outlines that it was not due to a more hostile border policy, but rather an increase in the number of people actually showing up at the border in the first place.
  Meanwhile, Trump is not only keeping those people there, but also ending the refugee resettlement program, deporting people to El Salvador without due process, actively spreading misinformation about immigrants, and black-bagging American citizens, including native Americans.
  Did Biden do some god awful things? Of course he fucking did. But what Trump is doing (and especially what he says he wants to do more of) is infinitely worse than what Biden did.
  I can see that weapons and money to Israel skyrocketed under Biden.
  And here's the secretary of state chosen by Trump actively expediting 4 billion dollars of additional military assistance to Israel while directly mentioning the fact that it goes against the Biden admin's partial arms embargo.
  If you wanted to reduce the amount of aid being given to Israel, maybe start with the party that did something to limit the aid being given to a degree, instead of the one actively adding on even more while repealing the limits.
  "Since taking office, the Trump Administration has approved nearly $12 billion in major FMS sales to Israel. This important decision coincides with President Trump’s repeal of a Biden-era memorandum which had imposed baseless and politicized conditions on military assistance to Israel at a time when our close ally was fighting a war of survival on multiple fronts against Iran and terror proxies."
  I can see that Obama alone prosecuted more whistleblowers than the US had prosecuted in its entire history.
  Yep, that's awful too. Too bad your own source also mentions that "six cases were tried during the presidency of Donald Trump between 2017 and 2021." and guess what? Trump is now actively trying to fire the head of the agency that protects government whistleblowers.
  If you can't see the pattern of Republicans just being Democrats but substantially worse, then it's no surprise you pull this "both sides are the same" argument.
  Does anybody like the fact that the Democrats are just the watered down fascist party? Of course not. But if you're going to try and better this fucking country, you don't do that by saying "the fascists and the less fascist people are identical, actually" and then ruin your own chances of having a more sympathetic administration by easily allowing the fascists to trick people into thinking they're just like the Democrats, and so more Democrat voters should feel okay with voting for them and their substantially worse policies.
  I've said it before to so many people on this platform, and I'll say it again: You do not increase your chances of enacting beneficial changes to this country when you support the larger evil, or act as though the larger evil and the lesser evil are identical. All you do is make it easier for the larger evil to gain power, no matter how much you personally advocate for better policies.
  
  Again, your only recourse is "Trump did it too" that's what I'm saying, jesus fucking christ. They're not staving off fascism, they're taking turns ramping it up in different places. When it comes to migrants and foreigners, their policies are the same; sometimes they change tactics or optics, but the end goal remains unchanged. You're hammering home the same point while saying it proves that democrats are much better. No they fucking ain't.
  it was not due to a more hostile border policy, but rather an increase in the number of people actually showing up at the border in the first place.
  So... it's okay because he was doing what Trump was doing, but a little less per migrant? There is, then, an acceptable rate of people in concentration camps, Trump was just a bit too loose with it.
  I don't give a single shit if they're 10% worse for gringos, they're just as bad and in a lot of ways much worse for the rest of the world. It was Biden who pushed the doomsday clock closest to midnight than it'd been since the cuban missile crisis. It was Obama who ramped up the drone bombing campaign, it was Clinton who ordered Gaddafi killed, it was Biden who drafted the 90s crime bill that made the US the most incarcerated population in the entire world.
  Matter of fact, whenever something got incredibly shitty for US citizens, you can flip a coin on whether it was Reagan who did it or Jim Crow Joe.
  
  Again, your only recourse is “Trump did it too”
  I make an extraordinarily clear point that Trump is just doing the same type of thing, but substantially worse. I'm not saying "Trump did it too," I'm saying "Trump did it even worse." If I want to reduce the overall harm in a situation, I don't get that by calling every option identical when some are less bad than others.
  When it comes to migrants and foreigners, their policies are the same
  I don't recall Democrats deporting people to foreign countries like El Salvador without due process while also completely ending the legal asylum seeking processes in this country.
  So… it’s okay because he was doing what Trump was doing, but a little less per migrant?
  It seems like you missed the part where I explicitly said it wasn't okay, and that it was simply less bad than what Trump is doing. Read my words instead of assuming my opinions.
  It was Biden who pushed the doomsday clock closest to midnight than it’d been since the cuban missile crisis. It was Obama who ramped up the drone bombing campaign, it was Clinton who ordered Gaddafi killed, it was Biden who drafted the 90s crime bill that made the US the most incarcerated population in the entire world.
  Just listing off the bad things Democrats have done without mentioning a single bad thing Trump has done in order to justify your moronic both sides argument is ridiculous.
  I don't know how many fucking times I'll have to say this. The Democrats are obviously shitty, but that doesn't mean that the substantially worse party is identical.
  You can't separate your own emotions against the Democrats from the reality that the Republicans are just the Democrats but even worse, so you resort to saying they're both the same, then provide no sensible solutions other than "the world should be this way... somehow."
  If you want to do good shit in this world, don't make it easier for the worst of the two parties to get in power by claiming they're the same as the lesser evil.
  If you have two people, one dropping 500 bombs on innocent people, and one dropping 1,000 bombs on innocent people, but both of them could have dropped more, and the one dropping 1,000 says he wants to drop 1,500, then if my goal is to stop the bombs being dropped on people, I don't go "both sides are the same because they're both bombing people," I go "I should do my best to ensure that the one dropping 1,000 bombs is the least likely to stay in power so that I can attempt to convince the people only dropping 500 bombs to drop less."
  Does it mean that the one dropping 500 bombs is a good person? Of course fucking not. Does it mean I support them as an individual? Of course not. But if my goal is to stop people being bombed, I'm going to prefer the people already dropping the least bombs, because they'll be the most easily convinced/forced to change.
  I'm tired of arguing with people who don't seem to be capable of understanding any level of fucking nuance, so I'll be ending this conversation here. Feel free to argue to the void if you'd like.
  
  Genocide denier
  You're seriously trying to use "The Trump admin said Biden was weak on Israel" as an argument that Biden was actually weak on Israel. Do you give so much trust to Trump in other contexts? Or only when it lets you defend genocide
  
  Both parties are ruining the planet, we agree on that, let's leave it there
  
  No because that is only a half truth. You are willfully ignorant of the other half of the equation. One side is measurably more damaging to the US and the world overall. You don't get to "both sides" this.
  
  Biden approved more and more fracking projects and oil exctraction hit record rates. Just because NBC kept saying everything was okay now doesn't mean that it was, some of us were paying as much attention then as we did under Trump, unlike dems.
  
  measurably
  Ok, go on, show us the measurements
  
  Both
  And yet one of them does significantly more to ruin the planet than the other.
  If you want the highest possible chance of changing the world for the better, you want a party in power that is the least bad of the options available to you. That doesn't mean that party is good in itself, but it's certainly the best chance you'll get.
  If you want to save the climate, for instance, the party that's open to developing more clean energy, even if they still support fossil fuels in some capacity, is better than the one actively dismantling climate regulations, halting clean energy development, and increasing our fossil fuel production to an even higher rate.
  Nobody likes this duopoly, but when you live under one, you have to pick the side that will do the least harm in order to implement your own goals to reduce harm further.
  This doesn't mean the Democrats are inherently good, but they're certainly going to give you a better shot at improving the world than the neo-Nazis will.
  let’s leave it there
  Sure, I've now got nothing left to say.
  
  I honestly thought reddit was bad but the "both siders are evil" morons here are way worse.
  
  "People who hate burgerland are morons" -> thats pretty much all foreigners -> "foreigners are evil we must genocide them" <- yank logic
  
  You don't get it.
  They are destroying the planet on top of all the other things.
  
  If both parties are pro-ending the world then everything else is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic

Another reminder that BlueMaga don't consider Palestinians human; their complete extermination is just "boring corporatism"

And there's a huge difference between fifty degrees below zero and absolute zero. But both are lethal to humans if exposed to it for a night.

You think you just said something wise, but there is a huge difference. One affords you more time, 2 or 3 hours don't matter much if you know you're dead.
But you're not, you can act. Progress is haltingly slow because people do not want retroactive talking points. New and shiny is entertaining. Our worlds have grown too vast, too fast. Legislation cannot catch up with the world they have awakened upon the 1s and 0s.
The 3rd party is you, you can act.
- Buying time for what? What can we make the Dems deliver on that will take us out of this state where we're constantly having to vote to avoid fascism and nothing else?
  
  Do you think happiness is reached and then let go? You have to clench it and never let go.
  Sadly life is not so simple, we like freedoms and so we must uphold them. They are a structure of ideas that you have to maintain. If you cannot even maintain the now, how can you make progress, how can you heal?
  You buy time for the hope you can savor life once more.
  
  This is why it's a waste of time working with Democrats because when you ask them for concrete goals all you get is philosophical sounding nonsense
  
  No one genuinely asked me for concrete goals, he asked what am I buying time for. I buy time for myself, my loved ones, and those I wish to support.
  If you want concrete goals, it's simple, but then again you think me a democrat. I do not have a voice in voting and you focus on political parties when I have named none.
  What do you do every day? I endure and travel, I walk and talk to those you overlook. I share my bounty with my neighbor and teach where I can. I endure pain so others don't.
  You think Jesus a democrat? He was the first recorded instance of an antifascist. He literally calls the Roman Legionnaires pigs with the demon Legion. I wish to replace it all but I am not one with that power, I am just one who can endure suffering without being clouded by hate and only love.
  I am sorry for your suffering, but I have no power aside my voice and kindness. Yet, to you of hate it is no power.
  
  No one genuinely asked me for concrete goals
  This was my original response to you:
  Buying time for what? What can we make the Dems deliver on that will take us out of this state where we’re constantly having to vote to avoid fascism and nothing else?
  You expect me to read the whole book you wrote but you can't read past word 4 of my post?
  
  Yes and I am not a democrat so I can only answer for what I think, and what I would do with such time. I have no concrete answers, I am but an aspirant of hope.
  You buy time that is all you can do. Avoiding fascism is a constant ideal to be upheld. Why do you buy time? No one can force you to do it, but when you appreciate some of the things you have, and that is all you can do. You submit to it.
  However, one cannot submit to this regime. The regime wants your will to be broken. It is not defeated through blind denouncing of one's innate responsibility.
  I am personally just helping those I can because I have not much ability beyond that. You have a stronger capability, and that is why I do not want you to give up.
  
  Stop using the lives of the innocent to refuse your own responsibilities.
  They more than anyone would understand how precious those extra couple hours can be. How bountiful, and that you may find salvation long enough to afford another day.
  We all suffer our birth, but we cannot induce more suffering by dejecting ourselves from opportunity. We must embrace, for how vast the internet is and how little it has made the world, we block off more and more from our lives. Denouncing our part in making good and effective influence, by removing ourselves from the scenario altogether.
  
  Stop using the lives of the innocent to refuse your own responsibilities.
  Stop projecting.
  They more than anyone would understand how precious those extra couple hours can be. How bountiful, and that you may find salvation long enough to afford another day.
  Yeah, because you're denying them to them.
  We all suffer our birth, but we cannot induce more suffering by dejecting ourselves from opportunity. We must embrace, for how vast the internet is and how little it has made the world, we block off more and more from our lives. Denouncing our part in making good and effective influence, by removing ourselves from the scenario altogether.
  Maybe take your own advice
  
  You brought them up, and call it projection. The lies you delude yourself with.
  I have caused harm to the Gazans? I am saying they more than anyone can understand the difference 2 hours can make in a life. You haven't witnessed unrelenting death and cowarded from bullets and it shows.
  I do good daily, talking to you seems the only bad I have done. A waste of words amuck the deaf and angry - unconstructive.
  
  Supporting it how?
  I literally am a person on the internet saying appreciate what you do have and make the most of it.
  I cannot vote and the only palestinian I have met became my brother, moreso when he met my mother. Then again, your signal grows weak as your virtue wanes. You talk of things unrelated to you in hope you will feel special and good.
  I wish I had your fortunate life, you see others so little you communicate in gestures. You cannot fathom words as beautiful and sweet as mine, so you must mock.

What's the huge difference in outcome? Why is voting the only type of action being considered?

You don't get to do a genocide and then say the other guy is "100% concentrated evil."

You don't get to define what evil is when you voted for the antichrist.
- I'm comfortable saying genocide is evil
No matter what action you took in this last election. You were voting for genocide.
Republican - genocide
Democrat - genocide with less fascism.
No vote - The two major parties are pro-genocide so you are genocide by default.
Third party - none of the third party candidates had a chance so genocide by default.
So accusing anyone of voting for genocide is kind of silly because everyone did. No one really had a choice.
- You voted for genocide and are now trying to absolve your conscience by claiming you had no choice, and that in reality everyone did what you did.
  No, a lot of people didn't do what you did.
  
  We all did, we all voted for it. We didn't all vote for fascism though. That was a you thing probably.
  
  You looked at a party committing genocide -- the worst thing people can do to one another -- and made the decision to co-sign that. I voted for someone who opposed genocide.
  No matter how desperately you want to water down the choice you made, it's not the same as the one I made. You don't actually have to shuffle along with genocide because Democrats lied about some half-assed loan forgiveness or something.
  
  Assuming what is in heart incorrectly doesn't counter my facts.
  I didn't vote for the Dems because of loan forgiveness, I voted for them because they were the least fascist option.
  It's ok though, I understand you are struggling with how your vote supported rapidity brining fascists to power. The large amount of death caused by the loss of USAID. Sending of innocent people to El Salvador concentration camp. Autistic people being marked as non-human. And look at that, it isn't even half way though the first year of this term.
  Literally, your only hope right now for a good outcome is if soo many people die that we 180 out of this with a revolution that somehow doesn't result in another authoritarian being in charge soon. Seriously, shit is soo fucked right now, I have become an accelerationist.
  
  It’s ok though, I understand you are struggling
  What do you think you are accomplishing by being such an insufferable ass?
  Democrats should be trying to win back voters like me -- voters who have supported lots of Democrats in the past, but who will not support genocide. They (and you) are instead telling those voters to fuck off. They (and you) make a lot of noise about wanting to win elections, but have no strategy besides browbeating voters, a strategy that just failed.
  
  Yes, 100 percent agree. Dems are useless. They could have really made a good showing when Trump started to do the fascist shit. But they decided to roll over and be smug about it.
  What do you think you are accomplishing by being such an insufferable ass?
  Did you forget you were calling me progenocide a couple replies ago? I'm sorry I was just following the vibe. I guess you can dish it but you can't take it.
  
  I said you voted for genocide because you voted for a party doing genocide. That's not the condescending shit you're doing, that's leveling a direct criticism.
  And if you agree Dems are useless... what the fuck are you even saying anymore? They're useless, they're doing a genocide, but you still have to vote for them, because if you voted for someone opposed to the genocide, guess what, you actually voted for genocide!
  Incoherent all the way down.
  
  What a fucking absurd thing for someone who supports genocide to say

"We don't have to argue with Communists, we can just call them dirty commies and plug our ears"
- When the commies refuse to grasp reality that is what people will say.
  
  It sure must be convenient to be able to simply gesture and posture around, rather than grapple with the arguments of others.
  
  I'm new here and just trying to fit in.. I guess I was confused after seeing all the people with .ml after their names do the exact same shit.
  
  Users on Lemmy.ml or Lemmygrad.ml tend to be Marxists of some kind, which means they tend to have similar analysis, though many Lemmy.ml users aren't Marxists, but also Anarchists or even liberals.
  
  I'm fully aware. That doesn't change my statement. That's not even relevant to the discussion.
  Are you saying its ok for for them to simply gesture and posture rather than grapple with arguments? I really don't see why you typed that.
  
  Your statement was empty, though. You just dodged having to engage with the argument. You were the one gesturing.
  
  You can read through this post. I've commented many times. I don't feel the need to have the same conversation with multiple people who all share the same lack of motivation to do anything besides sit on the sidelines and jerk each other off about how their preferred method of governance would fix everything while they can't even be bothered to do the most base civic duty to push for the change they allegedly want. Its fucking exhausting.
  And for the record I think capitalism is a fucking virus. I also think people who refuse to engage with the system to change it have no right to complain about it. The US is the most militarized police state in the world. You aren't helping shit by telling people not to vote. Your actively damaging all the work others are doing.
  
  Bold of you to think leftists believe voting to be the most base civic duty to push for change, and not organizing and revolution.
  
  "no u"
So true, bestie, everyone who disagrees with me and cites their sources are irrational. True rational enlightened thinkers just call their interlocutors tankies and log off.
"Everyone who doesn't share my casually fascist politics is just irrational, mentally incompetent if you will, and not worthy of consideration"
Sounds like someone who is really confident in the strength of their arguments and the courage of their convictions