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  • No, this is a ridiculous statement.

    Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.

    • white-washes genocide and support authoritarianism

      That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue

      I'm an anarchist, I don't 'support' any of these parties beyond having a cautious optimism seeing China execute billionaires who misbehave.

      • I won't speak for you specifically, since we've never interacted, but we both know ML's management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.

        You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.

        • openly supportive of russian genocidal imperialism

          failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.

          I outlined my position in the other reply, these servers are not really a monolith other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry

          • other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry

            I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole "they're open to dissent, just not bigotry" is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying "we allow everyone, just not trolls" and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for "trolling" saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.

            It's a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn't really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.

            If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I've ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don't do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.

            • I went and checked, was it on this account? The only thing I see in their modlog is you got a comment removed- this one:

              and like I agree with removing that, it just looks like you're doing this:

              You didn't even get banned.

              Like I've actually tried looking up every time I see someone complaining about draconian mod actions and more often then not it's something that just someone stirring shit and getting their wrist slapped, rather than the free speech 1984 gulag that they go on to complain about elsewhere.

              • My whole instance is defederated from Hexbear as far as I can tell. I can't quite make sense of what shows in their "instances" page, but I'm not in "allowed." Also, entertainingly enough they are apparently happy to make use of my RSS feed communities from rss.ponder.cat, although apparently totally uninterested in the actual news contained there. No one is subscribed to anything except for hackaday.

                Here, look at this: https://ponder.cat/c/art@hexbear.net -- I am subscribed, but it hasn't updated in 6 months ever since I participated in that thread.

                As I explained in that thread when someone sent me that same picture, I am not at all fantasizing about Trump sending pro-Palestinian or pro-migrant people to concentration camps. I'm not by any means happy about it. That's why I tried to stop it from happening and was alarmed when they were uninterested in one particular way of stopping it. Surely that makes sense? Or yes it does, or no?

                • weird, your instance is not defederated on the hexbear side, not sure what's going on there, it definitely looks like you aren't getting posts.

                  As I explained in that thread when someone sent me that same picture, I am not at all fantasizing about Trump sending pro-Palestinian or pro-migrant people to concentration camps. I’m not by any means happy about it.

                  I get that, but you can see how someone could read that and feel like that's what you were saying?

                  That’s why I tried to stop it from happening and was alarmed when they were uninterested in one particular way of stopping it.

                  All 80+ mil people who didn't vote aren't on lemmy. Some powerless online anarchists/communists failing to tow the line on shit isn't why the ruling party essentially got swept in an incumbent election. I voted in a blue state for the communist because I agree with what they had to say about things more than I do Democrats or Republicans. It had objectively no impact. Maybe if more of the Democrats who feel as strongly as you fell into line with me instead we could actually be in a position to be using this horrifying war machine for something positive.

                  • I thought hexbear used an allowlist rather than a blocklist, but could be wrong about that.

                  • Wait - YOU WERE THE ONE who threatened me with an icepick!

                    The only thing I’m predicting that I’m meeting your mind with is an icepick

                    I was absolutely defederated from the Hexbear side. It actually happened in the middle of that thread, I missed being able to see some of these comments too, until I just checked now to look at all the comments I hadn't received after the defederation:

                    i am wishing death and suffering upon you. I hope your life gets materially worse. I hope you get leprosy. I hope you get stabbed. I hope you get long covid. I hope you hang for your collaborationist ways and I hope the hangman fucks up so it's painful

                    you get to climb to the top of a very tall building and yeet yourself into the void

                    Death threat

                    You're free to pretend it is a big mystery why all of a sudden I stopped receiving updates right during the middle of that conversation and then have never received them again. You can compare the comments on my instance to the ones on Hexbear, and see the timestamp (2024-10-31 11:04:23.640156+00) after which I receive no new updated comments.

                    Again, this is what Hexbear does (along with the tradition of violent hostility to anything outsider) to protect itself against being exposed to dissenting points of view. Lemmy.ml does the same, just in a more subtle and less shit-picture-based fashion.

                    I get that, but you can see how someone could read that and feel like that’s what you were saying?

                    You're doing a lot of excuses for how someone could "feel like" one thing someone is saying is actually some other thing. This is the second time you've done that. Actually, after I explained myself in that thread, I still received plenty of people who were telling me all kinds of stuff about what I believe and how I was lying about why I was saying that, just so they could have the mean-spirited fun of "dunking." You've done the same thing here.

                    I see you've learned well. My observation is that this is an incredibly popular pastime on lemmy.ml and friends. They tell each other what their "enemies" believe, and then if someone comes in trying to explain anything different, they get super-hostile to an unhinged and violent degree about what the person is actually saying is some totally different thing, and then they get all frothy about it until the person leaves or gets banned.

                    Like I say: Waste of time. I'm not sure why I have spent as long on it now as I have.

                    Maybe if more of the Democrats who feel as strongly as you fell into line with me instead we could actually be in a position to be using this horrifying war machine for something positive.

                    Yeah, y'all sound super productive. I can't wait to fall in line with you and experience all the victory you're in store for. So far, you're killing it.

                    • Wait - YOU WERE THE ONE who threatened me with an icepick!

                      The only thing I’m predicting that I’m meeting your mind with is an icepick

                      Guilty

                      For what it's worth I apologize for that, death threats are uncalled for no matter how much trolling someone is doing.

                      to quote one of the other users in that thread:

                      Crybully type shit. You're being dunked on for being horrendously right wing with the unearned smugness of thinking you yourself are "left wing". "Negotiating" with power the way you ask of us here is simply the privilege of not being the next target, or imagining you aren't.

                      My observation is that this is an incredibly popular pastime on lemmy.ml and friends. They tell each other what their “enemies” believe

                      You guys have already demonstrated what you believe, no need to embellish

                      Yeah, y’all sound super productive.

                      Didn't you hear that we were the sole reason the multi-billion dollar Kamala election campaign ate shit? clearly you miscalculated so get in line next time 😎

          • You talk big, yet you wish death to Ukrainians and cheer for russians to capture Ukrainian territory and eradicate Ukrainian culture.

            You're not fooling anyone.

            EDIT: Since you're fine with ice pick murder fantasies, let me say the following:

            I do hope one day you and your fellow tankies get to experience the life of "Donbas Cowboy", Russell Bentley.

            Bentley’s wife, Lyudmila, then claimed that Russian soldiers from a tank battalion abducted him.

            According to the Investigative Committee, Vansyatsky, Agaltsev, and Iordanov tortured Bentley on April 8, and he died shortly afterward.

            Vansyatsky and Agaltsev are suspected of blowing up a car with Bentley’s body in it and ordering Bazhin to get rid of what was left of his remains.

            Just imagine what was going through his mind in those last moments.

            • re: death threat, For the record, I apologized to the guy and he accepted it.

              yet you wish death to Ukrainians and cheers for russians to capture Ukrainian territory and eradicate Ukrainian culture.

              I most certainly do not. You seem primed to construe anything that's not absolute demonization as support though.

              thank you for the "radio free Europe" article I will file that away with the rest of the high quality journalism.

              • thank you for the “radio free Europe” article I will file that away with the rest of the high quality journalism.

                Tankie scum are so predictable. You're so tied to your CIA/BIA narrative that you can't even think straight. The RFE article cites internal russian judicial decisions which can be further cross-referenced by russian propaganda.

                Or are you saying the BIA hacked russian propaganda sources and russian judicial rulings in order to "make the RFE article seem more real"?

                I most certainly do not. You seem primed to construe anything that’s not absolute demonization as support though.

                Don't lie. Tankie scum denies russian atrocities in Ukraine. "Bucha never happened, tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians aren't held in concentration camps in occupied territories, Ukrainian language and culture aren't prosecuted in occupied territories." I've had multiple tankie roaches tell me this on Lemmy.

                But the worst part is that you do this merely due to internet roleplay reasons. You don't speak russian, you don't speak Ukrainian. You've never lived in russia, you've never lived in Ukraine.

                You couldn't even use common sense to figure out that stating "BIA wrote that fake article" logically does not work (even if you are a tankie), because you can cross validate it in 30 seconds via a russian language search that clearly shows russian propaganda channels saying the same thing as RFE (and you can even find the formal russian judicial ruling on government websites).

                Let's hope Russell Bentley's learning experience is something you and other tankie scum will experience as well!

                • You’re so tied to your CIA/BIA narrative

                  What is BIA in this context?

                  I was just mocking the source because it's just a window into how you engage with the world. My dismissive response was because you felt the need to wish the same fate upon me simply by your association.

                  I'm not denying the story at all, The reporting has been circulating for a while. It was a fucked up situation and the way you revel in it is gross, makes all of your accusations feel more like projections.

                  But the worst part is that you do this merely due to internet roleplay reason. You don’t speak russian, you don’t speak Ukrainian. You’ve never lived in russia, you’ve never in Ukraine.

                  I do have family there and I've visited dozens of times over the years. I'm not interested in potentially doxxing myself though, I also have nothing to prove to you. You can continue to believe whatever you want about me, you seem content to believe whatever makes you feel comfortable anyways.

                  tankie scum

                  tankie roaches

                  this kinda talk just makes you just sound like a nazi who's found a way to hang out in liberal spaces by vocally hating the people they hate

                  • It's not a window into how I engage with the world. It's an article. How you reacted to it is clearly a window into your world (no one is buying your mea culpa).

                    So you are vatnik in addition to being a tankie? Worst of both worlds. And a foreign vatnik to boot as well! Those are the most entertaining ones.

                    Here you go again with your standard tankie polemic copytext. I am not American, in Europe "liberal" means something different.

                    It is fair and just to wish harm on people who are committed to bring death and suffering to your family, to your fellow citizens. I will note throughout this whole conversation you never once made any kind of statement that perhaps the russian are doing bad things. I wonder why this would be the case?

                    Don't start with your projection BS.

                    We both saw that you randomly fantasized about killing some random internet user with an ice pick.

                    Unlike you, I am not hiding behind anything and playing dumb. You and your tankie scum support genocide and wish me and my family and fellow citizens harm.

                    As a result, I wish that you and other tankie scum like you end up like the Donbas cowboy.

                    What exactly am I projecting here? Be clear and specific, don't play dumb.

                    As I said, earlier let’s hope Russell Bentley’s learning experience is something you and other tankie scum will experience as well!

                    • We both saw that you randomly fantasized about killing some random internet user with an ice pick.

                      the same user admitted to being a jerk in the exchange as well, and not proud of their behavior in the runup to that very response. As far as I'm concerned that has been reconciled, even if we disagree.

                      You and your tankie scum support genocide and wish me and my family and fellow citizens harm.

                      I'm an anarchist, you are the one who declare me a tankie because at the end it's just a pejorative, like calling me a slur. You then go on contriving positions for me to hold on your mind.

                      re: calling me vatnik, I find jingoism from any direction off-putting, but go off.

                      What exactly am I projecting here?

                      as I said in my previous post, you seem like a Nazi who has latched onto the appropriate targets for the company you keep

                      • Tankie is a descriptive term. A supporter of authoritarian faux-communist regimes (i.e. russia and China). Try telling an average person on the street about "tankie discrimination" and you'll see what I mean.

                        as I said in my previous post, you seem like a Nazi who has latched onto the appropriate targets for the company you keep

                        This makes no sense at all.

                        I am a Nazi (i.e. I want my own extermination) and to promote my alleged agenda I decided to join LW which in the bigger scope of things means nothing at all (don't forget Lemmy as a whole has a mere ~50K MAU).

                        Do you even read what you write?

      • That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue

        I'll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote "blue" because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.

        Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote "blue." The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote "blue," to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn't care about Palestine, and that's why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.

        Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it's happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You're not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don't know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).

        • The people pointing out 'the .ml general consensus' by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).

          From direct experience it's not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn't get banned for wrongthink yet and it's not the first time.

          Just don't be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I've picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I've had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.

          You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I'm more comfortable in the 'tankie-run' spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I've seen them actually attempting to address it when it's brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I've even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it's going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.

          So again, not a monolith.

          re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn't care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.

          • The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).

            Here's the kind of thing I was talking about:

            https://ponder.cat/post/2492263

            100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia's invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they're somehow not "in favor" of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)

            You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.

            • I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:

              I don't think this is them trolling you, (...) ::: spoiler spoiler it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china 'dumbfuck'

              :::

              I'm actually primarily a .ml user, (...) ::: spoiler spoiler I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.

              I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but I've pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.

              :::

              Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (...) ::: spoiler spoiler

              The "answering questions" sticks out, because that's what they're referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- it's not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, that's just internet slang. I didn't see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if they're not browsing local.

              I could just ignore it but I feel like that’s not the way. I don’t really feel like ceding the narrative space to them even if 99% of the people reading understand that they’re full of shit about it. I think most people have just moved on from wanting to engage with it.

              I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and it's something I'm working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since you're banned, I'll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why you're going to get a response reflecting that.

              :::

              Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass ::: spoiler spoiler

              It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way it's not jingoism to express that knowledge.

              :::

              Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO

              Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination

              conclusion:

              I might as well address the ban here too:

              I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it's worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.

              • I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it’s worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.

                Yeah, I'm completely fine with a serious discussion about it, because you seem like you're capable of a serious discussion. So, right from the jump, the first comment they made:

                That immediately to me is super offensive. Probably more so than pig shit pictures, definitely more so than me being condescending to them. Why? Because it is deliberate lies in service of killing. I still dealt with it factually, and I indicated I'd be open to a factual exchange. You want me to be nice about it also? Why would I do that? That doesn't seem like it's necessary.

                I have no idea if that person actually thinks that Putin will honor a cease-fire, whether randomly unilaterally announced or not. It is clear to me that he will not. Actually, you seemed to acknowledge that they know he won't (saying that all of these cease-fires tend to fall apart and not be honored). There are plenty of cease-fires that get honored, definitely plenty that aren't broken on a huge scale right away on purpose.

                Bottom line: I've known people from Ukraine. I've talked with them about their country getting torn apart, people they know getting killed, with an endless stream of lies coming from the other side about the reasons why and the things they can do to stop it from happening. I just don't have patience for it. My whole SA analogy is in absolutely no way frivolous. I think it's an absolutely spot-on way of expressing the horror of Russia claiming they're only blowing up apartment buildings and hospitals because someone might be trying to resist them or give a security guarantee, and they didn't like that, so they have every right to keep killing until they feel like stopping. And, someone on Lemmy saying the answer to that all is to stop arming Ukraine so they can't fight back anymore. I think it's disgusting, and I don't think I'm required to be nice when explaining why.

                I don't think anyone on Hexbear has any right to request that someone not be "overly antagonistic" when they speak to them. For obvious reasons. The whole framing reeks of privilege and dishonesty, of creating rules for other people without any pretense that you're planning to follow them yourself.

                I do think that some of the Hexbear people are just confused and going along with the herd in terms of their beliefs and behavior. The whole propaganda framing is pretty powerful. Calm conversation is "sealioning" and it's bad. Dissenting voices are conflated with bigotry, even if they have nothing to do with it, and so banning dissent is "protecting the space" from bigotry and just standing up for the oppressed which no other instance will do. Of course. There are all these words that get redefined as other different words, and all sorts of facts that aren't true that are repeated so aggressively and often that they start to get accepted, and so these things they believe and do start to make sense within the off-kilter light they're seen in.

                Nakoiochi’s response is not jingoistic here either

                Yes it is.

                There are two narratives about shelling in Donbas:

                1. That Ukraine's Nazi government was randomly shelling civilians in Donbas and Russia tried their best through good means to put a stop to it, and eventually, they had no choice but to invade.
                2. That Moscow funded separatists to start a mini-civil-war in Donbas and then blamed the resulting death on an imaginary Nazi government in Kyiv.

                I know that several times I've asked people who told me the first narrative to back it up, and they couldn't. They would send me sources that said one thing claiming it said something else, send me random Youtube videos that didn't actually prove anything, that kind of thing. I don't actually know whether it is the second narrative that's true, or whether it's sort of a "truth is somewhere in the middle" type of thing. It's hard to say, at least for me with as much as I've looked into it. But I definitely have seen several people who said it was the first thing and found out afterwards that they were talking purely out of their ass.

                Uncritically saying that Moscow's narrative is definitely true is jingoistic. And actually, dealing with people who disagree by simply shouting them down in a pack is more or less a key component of jingoism to me. The fact that Moscow says the first narrative is what happened means absolutely nothing to me, since they generally lie about all kinds of things constantly. I touched on that in that big conversation (with no substantive response, go figure). I've never heard anyone outside of that bubble say that's what happened. And, like I said, even if it did happen exactly the way Moscow claims it did, that wouldn't excuse three years of mass killing in Ukraine. They've killed more Russian-speakers now, probably a hundred times over, by sending them into the meat grinder or just semi-accidentally bombing their homes in the course of the war, than anyone ever claimed had been killed in Donbas.

                If someone is ethnically Russian in eastern Ukraine, and they're unhappy with the Kyiv government, there are means to deal with that other than starting a civil war.

                I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights I’ve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.

                This is a great example of what I was talking about. It's just lies. The underlying fact is true, the court did order Ukraine to pay some people because of what happened in the burning of the trade union building, but it's being summarized in a wildly misleading way. On purpose. To tell lies to justify slaughter.

                I would actually really recommend that you read the actual judgement that they're summarizing here in this way. You tell me whether this page you linked me to is summarizing what the court actually found in an accurate way.

                Like I say: I'm fine having a factual discussion about it, but I don't see why I would be obligated in any way to be nice to someone who doesn't want that and is also willing to be 10 times more offensive than I am when they're on the other side of the disagreement. To me that's not offensive, it's just fairness.

                • I don’t think anyone on Hexbear has any right to request that someone not be “overly antagonistic” when they speak to them. For obvious reasons. The whole framing reeks of privilege and dishonesty, of creating rules for other people without any pretense that you’re planning to follow them yourself.

                  My suggestion was more from the direction of if you hope to be getting something from the conversation other than generating adrenaline, (I know I'm not always the best example of this) maybe you shouldn't be so antagonistic. The path you took resulting in a few back and forths, then you obliquely accused someone of being Russian and got banned. I don't think that trying to tie that in to a broader echo chamber narrative tracks from that either. The internet is full of places where people seek out others with similar politics, it seems like a simpler explanation for their ideological uniformity.

                  From what I could tell it was only two top level comments in 4 hours from hexbear, Sasuke's comment was entirely innocuous when it comes to the Ukraine war and you replied to it by soapboxing about hexbear broadly. I don't think that type of reaction really serves your own goals, it just makes you look like you're overreacting out of nowhere.

                  I have no idea if that person actually thinks that Putin will honor a cease-fire, whether randomly unilaterally announced or not. It is clear to me that he will not. Actually, you seemed to acknowledge that they know he won’t (saying that all of these cease-fires tend to fall apart and not be honored). There are plenty of cease-fires that get honored, definitely plenty that aren’t broken on a huge scale right away on purpose.

                  I don't think any of us can really know what's in Putins head, there's tons of other factors besides that which also will contribute to if a ceasefire holds. ie, how much control do both armies have over the individuals, are there miscommunications, do people continue to restrain themselves in spite of the violations, etc, them I don't think it's all down to one person if the ceasefire succeeds or fails.

                  And, someone on Lemmy saying the answer to that all is to stop arming Ukraine so they can’t fight back anymore. I think it’s disgusting, and I don’t think I’m required to be nice when explaining why.

                  I've also known many people from Ukraine over the years, you will forgive me if I don't give too many personal details, I don't think me supplying my own anecdotes would help anyways. You seem to feel very strongly about your position and don't seem very curious about why people might disagree.

                  There are two narratives about shelling in Donbas:

                  That Ukraine’s Nazi government was randomly shelling civilians in Donbas and Russia tried their best through good means to put a stop to it, and eventually, they had no choice but to invade.

                  That Moscow funded separatists to start a mini-civil-war in Donbas and then blamed the resulting death on an imaginary Nazi government in Kyiv.

                  I'm inclined to say somewhere in between, take for example the Donbass self defense forces, some of those were definitely Russian military and some of those were absolutely locals. Either way, they could not have survived without Russian military aid. However to say people are 'moscow funded' the equivalent is also true- the Ukraine government is US funded. Ukraines media is US funded.

                  Uncritically saying that Moscow’s narrative is definitely true is jingoistic. And actually, dealing with people who disagree by simply shouting them down in a pack is more or less a key component of jingoism to me.

                  I would say that if someone who's Russian was behaving in support of Russia the way I've seen a lot of pro-Ukraine lemmy users behave I would probably be more inclined to call it as jingoistic. Not to be edgy or anything, but I've been in my share of Russian telegram groups, I've been to family gatherings, I have run into my share of Russian jingoism. As near as I can tell the person you were responding to (Nakoiochi) is a US anarchist. They weren't calling them Khokols or Ukrops, pigs or gloating, they just mocked Trumps promises to fix this in 24hr because there is a standing offer that he could accept- unless he just has no control over the situation. (likely)

                  Either way a core component of jingoism is nationalism, and it feels weird to be accusing people of being nationalist for a different country, when they're an anarchist, just because you don't like their understanding of world events. I don't think people who are saying something that happens to be in agreement with the position of a particular nation are then necessarily nationalist as a result, especially if they're not even from there and in fact live in the geopolitical enemy.

                  If someone is ethnically Russian in eastern Ukraine, and they’re unhappy with the Kyiv government, there are means to deal with that other than starting a civil war.

                  In my previous response I asked twice about your position on self-determination, that wasn't me being flippant, but more trying to get at a core contradiction in the way separatist regions looking for self-determination have been treated. When it was Kosovo it was acceptable to allow for separatists to break away, do you think that it would have made the situation better for Russia to start dumping weapons on Serbia in that situation to help them counter the 'invasion' from Albania? It's a hypothetical and not really logistically feasible, but my point is more that this situation went from bad to worse because fuel has only been continually added to this fire rather than de-escalation.

                  Re: Odessa Trade union

                  The article I linked did include large sections from the reporting along with the broader context. There's details which are actively disputed; the point is not the grisly details which are always ripe for propaganda embellishment, but rather the points as laid out in the report. The picture painted is of a government which actively made the situation worse, and enabled those very Russian propaganda campaigns by their own complicity in the massacre and the subsequent investigation.

                  Quoting the report: (directly)

                  The issue is it's hard to dismiss calling the Ukrainian government 'Nazi' when there's been this level of collaboration between right wing (in some cases openly nazi) gangs doing political terrorism to people. Those gangs are now a part of the military, as long as their military tolerates people running around with a black sun or whatever nazi paraphernalia it's just going to get photographed and circulated on Russian social media, feeding into that same propaganda campaign you yourself expressed an interest in combating.

          • It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like

            Yeah, that's the problem. You're operating off "many others" instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldn't be saying this stuff.

            A lot of what you're saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. I'm pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that I'm not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what I've observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming they're all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I don't even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that "vote blue" contingent you're talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.

            Now though we're talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden we're not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US "team", in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Y'all have a fantasy that it exists... you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.

            This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who don't care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how "condescending" was super important to assign weight and value to, but "snatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOT" was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, I'm not into it.

      • While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
        Not voting doesn't help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn't dissappearing people.

        • I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn't maybe I would have protested in another way. I'm not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I'm not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.

          I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.

          • Well, there is a lot more to protest now with Trump.

            It is annoying for people to dismiss any critisism against the democrats. Some people think they are a perfect, flawless party.

      • telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue

        Not a single person said that.

        • Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: "I just fantasized about the republicans killing you"

          • Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:

            "I just fantasized about the republicans killing you"

            Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?

            Three in this thread alone?

            • That one came from this- https://hexbear.net/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=1765223

              It looked enough like gloating about the situation to piss people off:

              https://hexbear.net/comment/5568891

              Neat world! Neat word too.

              "let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing" I meant it as world; like I'm introducing an entirely new concept to you, rather than just a word.

              • So, your example is some butt-hurt Hexbear mods that need to be introduced to the world of sarcasm?

                And speaking of-

                OMG! I honestly believed you though I didn’t know what paraphrasing meant!

                /s

                And for the record: Hexbear links aren’t going to be acceptable as evidence to anything other than proof that literacy isn’t an accurate representation of intelligence.

                • lol any more requirements officer?

                  you want my papers?

                  if you're just going to ignore anything I do provide and call me a liar I'm not gonna be motivated to engage in good faith.

                  OMG! I honestly believed you though I didn’t know what paraphrasing meant!

                  honestly not sure what you're even trying to say anymore

                  • Provide something substantial. I promise I won’t ignore it. It’s not who I am. But if you’re going to try and use The Sorcerer’s Secret to prove that Harry Potter really exists..

                    I am going to doubt you.

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