Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem
Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem
I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy's massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It's been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let's say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they're what's colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn't be much of an issue if they didn't regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, ...
As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.
I posted a comment in this thread linking to "https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs" (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren't widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the "Be nice and civil" rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.
This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:
Definitely a trend there wouldn't you say?
When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.
Proof:
So many of you will now probably think something like: "So what, it's the fediverse, you can use another instance."
The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they're not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it's rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there's nobody to discuss anything with.
I'm not sure if there's a solution here, but I'd like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.
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I don't think there is a solution.
Effective moderation to protect vulnerable people needs more centralization. Avoiding the influence of bad-actor mods needs more decentralization. The two seem fairly mutually exclusive. Or rather, they trade off against each other.With more users, having a fractured community wouldn't be a huge problem, because they could all have critical mass. But with the current user base that is generally not feasible, even for really popular topics.
Defederation of lemmy.ml from the larger instances would be a solution.
Man do you know how many instances exist? I hate this idea of trying to coordinate defederation across all bigger instances all at once. You have the option of migrating to an instance which is already defederated from them, or hosting your own instance and defederating from whoever you want. You can also mute them. Don't come to a decentralized network with the expectation of imposing centralized decision making behaviour?
I'm talking about systemic solutions for the general problem of bad-actor mods.
Defederating an instance is fracturing the community which difficult for a community to withstand with our current user numbers.
Giving mods less power, such as making communities themselves defederated, makes problems for good-faith mods who are trying to protect vulnerable community members.
It'd be neat if the community itself could vote to migrate to a new instance, but that'd be so fraught with abuse that I can't see it actually working.
It’d be neat if the community itself could vote to migrate to a new instance
You kind of already can do this. It's just that instead of voting directly, people choose individually where to go instead. That is also kind of a "vote" - you vote by choosing a community and so whichever gets most votes becomes the new major community of that topic.
There is no need for a systematic solution, it is already in place. The admins/mods of lemmy.ml are acting in questionable ways and people are pointing this out and some are even trying to rally to defederate and trying to get people to move off the instance and all that. This is the systematic solution. The system is working as intended.
But again that fractures the community.
You lose all the community history, and not everyone migrates to the new community. You end up with a bunch of new splinter communities, none of which have critical mass to survive.
You can't have decentralisation without the possibility of some amount of fracturing. I mean decentralization is essentially fractured by design. I think this won't be such a big problem in the future as instances and communities mature more.
I don't necessarily agree that decentralized is fractured by design, nor that "working as intended" means that it's the best solution for this/every situation.
I'm saying that as we decentralize, we get both advantages and disadvantages. I'm saying that this is a situation where we can't both have our cake and eat it too.
For example:
We could decentralize communities themselves, preventing them from fracturing. Instead of having communities hosted on a single instance, communities could be feeds aggregating all posts tagged as belonging to that community. Then if you defederate an instance you simply stop seeing posts from users in that instance.
But then good-faith mods are defanged and can no longer protect vulnerable community members from antagonistic actors.I think my straw example tradeoff is a bad one, that's too much decentralization of power.
Effective moderation to protect vulnerable people needs more centralization.
No it doesn't. Centralization would make it so that if there are bad mods, you would have nowhere to go instead. That's how reddit is - if you don't like the mods in a subreddit, tough luck.
Decentralisation helps by providing alternatives if the existing mods/admins go bad.
I actually already discussed that if you go back and read the comment that you're replying to