Agreed Islam is an idea not a race.
Agreed Islam is an idea not a race.
125 comments
-
-
Bigotry is intersectional. You know damn well what people are trying to say, and what hateful bullshit they're responding to.
When some redcap uses "Muslim" as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they're not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument. They're being a racist asshole. Even if the label they use is not a race. If you haven't noticed - racist assholes love tiny excuses to say 'what's so racist about--?!' whatever dehumanizing caricature they just attributed to some associated label. Like "thugs." Or "bankers."
Bankers aren't an ethnicity... but people screaming about "bankers controlling the media" are definitely talking about an ethnicity.
-
When some redcap uses "Muslim" as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they're not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument.
This is true, but when I'm having a discussion about religion and I feel like I'm done criticizing christianity and move on to islam for a bit, people shouldn't say "woah, that sounds a bit racist", and some people still do. I'm very left leaning but I have to say it's mostly people who consider themselves progressive or left leaning, who have trouble separating these things.
-
Do you often find yourself in "discussions about religion" where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?
Do you also criticize Judaism? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?
Or is it just those two?
-
In your discussions about Islam, do you confine your criticism to Islam as a religion, or do you branch off into the political and social roles that Islam plays and their negative contributions towards human development (sorry if I am making assumptions)?
If it is the latter, it is an incomplete picture unless you talk about how what we now consider the Muslim world was pushed into being such through the systemic disassembly of moderate Islam and secular third world movements because they were seen as less disruptive to the international order than the potentially Soviet-aligned movements? The Islamic Republic in Iran didn’t come out of nowhere, after all. You’re not talking about Islam per se at that point, but a forced move of political radicalization that was looking for any carrier it could use.
-
-
I think that the media is controlled by people that are extremely wealthy, not just bankers and that some of them being Jewish has nothing to do with it.
-
-
Discriminating and/or being mean to Muslims is not cool. Thinking their religion is fucking stupid is cool. Same goes for the other religions.
-
Religion is part of identity. You can't make fun of someone's religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.
Not to mention that the profoundly religious associate everything they do as acting in accordance with scripture. So by making a mockery of their faith, you are by extension the enemy of all that is good and just, and there's no difference in intent from their perspective.
That's why you can never try to reason with people who are religious. If they're going to interpret it that way anyways, may as well meet them at their level and accept the situation for what it is.
-
I don't think religious people are stupid per se for being religious, but I do think in most cases that they lost a crucial opportunity in childhood to form independant opinions and rational thought.
You make some good points though re trying to reason with religious people. Aside from the deep, deep lifelong programming... there's a little voice in the back of their mind that must be silenced, because it would be incredibly damaging to their psyche to realise they've tied themselves & their lives to something false.
-
You can say the same about any ideology and conviction. But, it is clearly false. Questioning dogmas is nearly the ONLY way to put people into rational path. Yes, most of them refuse, but some of them will. There are a lot of people who got helped by others questioning their dogmas. You also will help yourself when you question yours.
-
Religion is part of identity. You can’t make fun of someone’s religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.
Don't sell yourself short. I know exactly what it is like being brought up religious and I have many people close to me who are devout, you can manage if I can. I feel bad with people infected with the mind virus. I want to help them. They are just as wise, as smart, as good as I am. The difference is, by pure luck, I am less infected than they are.
-
I mean, that’s certainly not exclusive to religion. If you can’t reason with anybody who identifies as part of group there’s really not a lot of people left.
-
You’re generalising behaviour too much. Many people just accept that you feel differently.
Not everyone is radicalised.
-
My sister is my best friend, but what you talked about has been a real problem for us ever since I dropped Christianity. I only told her I don't believe anymore pretty recently, so we're still figuring out how to talk about religion and god (which is a very big deal for her) while we both disagree. It's tricky, but we always figure stuff like this out. She's quite open-minded, especially for a religious person, and that helps a ton. It's still tricky though
-
-
-
Not all bigotry is racist. I don't think mocking Islam is bigoted, but holy fuck can it be sometimes.
-
Its like the saying "I couldn't give you a dictionary definition of porn but I know it when I see it"
I couldn't explain to you what the differences between one asshole making fun of Islam and a racist doing it but I sure as shit know it when I see it
-
Seems straightforward: don't talk shit about all Muslims and pretend it's criticism of Islam. If you're railing against specific dogma, go wild. If you're insisting all seven hundred million believers must fanatically share that dogma, fuck off. Divisions within the faith are kind of contentious. Projecting third-hand knowledge of al-Shawarma militants onto Ali Patel from accounting is naked prejudice.
That goes double if you're just muttering about "Islamism" because Al wears a turban.
-
I think you cross the line
oncewhen it's not critical and just spiteful. -
One of them is motivated by a rational dislike of religious delusion and oppressive thinking, the other one is motivated by its own brand of religious delusion and oppressive thinking.
"I know it when I see it" (formerly an actual Supreme Court doctrine) is kind of an embarrassing cop-out from thinking hard enough about something to actually define it, no judgment at you or anything, more in terms of "I cannot believe they decided First Amendment cases on that bullshit basis".
-
-
-
Singling out can be a form of xenophobia, in this case with the religion part simply being an excuse for it. You know, the way dogwhistles work. You don't betray the prejudiced part, you say something which technically you can argue for. Playing innocent saves the day again.
-
When people make something stupid their identity, and I call the stupid thing stupid, and they feel offended, that is not on me.
-
Thinking Islam is a race is racist.
-
Other than you assume folks are Muslim because they are brown, yeah, sure, wahtever.
-
Where did they do that?
-
Everywhere they claim it isn't racism. Sure calling it bigotry resolves any question, but the point is to avoid the Racist connotation of singling out Islam. Much like Vanilla Ice didn't remove the Racist element from condemnation of Rap.
-
-
-
Talking about Islam in a mocking way might not be considered racist, but it can definitely be offensive or disrespectful. Racism is more about discriminating against people based on their race or ethnicity, while religion involves beliefs. Still, making fun of any religion, including Islam, can hurt people's feelings. It's important to be mindful of how our words affect others and to have conversations that are respectful and understanding. While we have the right to debate and express opinions, it's good to approach these talks with empathy and consider how they might impact people emotionally.
-
Mocking an attribute of a group, rather than the group directly, can still be racist.
-
All racism is bigotry, but not all bigotry is racism.
To say that Islam is a race is racist.
Insulting ideas isn't bigotry. Insulting all of the people who have those ideas, because of those ideas is bigotry not racism.
-
-
If it's only Islam and not other religions it is, if it's all religions it's just anti-theism
-
Even if it was just Islam that still wouldn't make Islam a race
-
125 comments
I mean, do you think Islamophobia is rooted in theological disputes? The Christian nationalists who find common ground between Catholics, evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox, and Jews hate Muslims because of their almost indistinguishable tenets of faith?
Yep. While technically being an Islamophobe isn’t racist, odds are the reason one is an Islamophobe has very little to do with them being Islamic.
Also, the hateful person does not care to distinguish between race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever other aspect they decide to hate. They have classified some attributes as making people not like them and hateable. The framework of analysis you are using is immaterial to the racist. That is, they do care that they are Islamic, just not with any subtlety.
I hate Islam. I'm not racist.
I also hate any religion that states unequivocally in their holy book that certain classes of people are less than others.... which is a core tenet of Islamic and Christian beliefs.
I couldn't actually tell you if it's in the Tanakh, but it very well wouldn't surprise me.
Any positive experience and interaction I have with a Muslim is in spite of their beliefs and their religion being a bit backwards in places.
Edit: I also hate any religion that preaches that people are inherently evil or unworthy of salvation...... that shit is toxic af.
I'm content to shit all over your religion regardless of your ethnicity.
Neat. What about the aforementioned religious nutjobs? You think they're engaged in sincere criticism of specific textual and cultural dogma? Because generally it looks like they're just being prejudiced assholes.
Uh, you sure about the Jews there bud? I don't recall many Christian nationalists having a particularly high opinion of Judaism. In fact I'd say they hate Jews more than they hate muslims
Have you never tried a Hebrew National? Shit is lit.
They fucking love Israel, though.
Go on. Tell me that's not directly about Judaism, as a religion. Tee it up for a direct comparison.
I mean, it is the same for everyone, we all know what happens when a religion you're not part of takes control. Religious people are simply hypocritical about it, but they're sort of justified. The Catholics took over the USA due to immigration and it worried the protestants back then, it could very well happen with another religion.
edit: a word
When the hell are you talking about?
Protestants are Christian. Did you mean Catholics?
People can agree and hate each other. Both Taiwan and China agree that there is one government for the Chinese people. Two people can both in love with the same person, and an both believe that the person is amazing and should be dating exclusively. I have gotten into a few spates with my wife about how to raise our children and we both agree that we love our children and want the best. I had a roommate once where we both agreed the dishes should be done every night by one of us.
-James Baldwin