Hexbear Discussion Round 2
Hexbear Discussion Round 2
I figured since their admin has asked them to stop participating over here it may be worthwhile to get a new discussion going that is primarily blahaj. I'm almost certain they'll still be upvoting so keep that in mind as that may skew things. Worthwhile to check in from instances that have already defederated them. The previous thread definitely left a bad taste in my mouth but what do y'all think?
Old thread can be found here
EDIT: With regards to the post on new federation guidelines here: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
The current top comment is:
Every instance that has talked shit and got dogpiled should be thanking us for breathing some life into their dead and boring ass websites.
After speaking to one of their admins and seeing the change in the rules on hexbear, I'm happy enough with the outcome.
Trans solidarity is incredibly important. It's the reason this instance exists. I prioritise that.
Hexbear (and Beehaw) is one of the only Lemmy instances that genuinely prioritise the protection of their gender diverse users, and honestly, if for nothing else, I believe it's worth a bit of discomfort to find a way of staying connected.
First comment for me, but I've been a blahaj member since the migration. When I learned about hexbear, I was really excited because I lurked r/cth back in the day and always liked their content a lot. I'm a GenX queer anarcho-syndicalist who is terminally irony poisoned and moderately online, so it's basically my people.
So I spent a bit of time looking at what they've built over the last 3 years and it was impressive. The reasons behind the mandatory pronouns are fantastic. As a cis person (sorry), whenever I specify my pronouns, it's an attempt to normalize specifying them so that it isn't just for trans people. That's why they added them in hexbear, and when they did that, it outed a whole bunch of transphobes and shitty people, who were then removed from the instance. Sounds like good praxis to me. Seeing cynical interpretations of that sucks.
They also don't allow downvoting, same as us, for many of the same reasons.
What we're seeing right now is a culture shock because they've only been loose in the fediverse for a week, and the folx over at hexbear are having a struggle session about it. They've been in a bubble for a while and they seem to know it They didn't know their emojis were so big, they're working out guidelines for engagement, they're trying to rein in the users who are getting too aggressive (including admins and mods DMing people).
It would be really cool if we at least gave them a couple more weeks to get the hang of things. Their communities are easy to block and the instance as a whole is very value aligned with blahaj. Queer and leftist unity is important.
The last thread was incredibly toxic thanks to hexbear users. If that is what they do on discussions about them then they are in effect nothing more than trolls. We should Defederate.
I agree with defederation based solely on the fact that nothing can be argued without it developing into an utter shit-fest with them. They only have memes and a spectrum of weird to abhorrent takes politically to give.
What, overall would we be losing vs gaining the ability to use the rest of Lemmy in peace?
I commented before on that thread (before hexbear members got to weigh in) and today I still don't think permanent defederation is warranted.
Hexbear absolutely needs to do better and some of the issue could also be with Lemmy's technical limitations. For example, Hexbear emotes are bugged on other instances and also the fact that hexbear and other instances were able to comment on that thread which muddled the objective of the post. Only blahaj members should have participated and we know that for the better.
Defederation to me means complete erasure of an instance that threatens the integrity of the host. I joined Blahaj to be express my queerness on lemmy and Hexbear isn't taking that away from me. Nor do I believe (imo) there was evidence of that in the 1st thread.
If it's too inconclusive then I'd say not to defederate and instead focus on making sure Lemmy as a whole can be improved for its users.
I've said almost all I care to on this matter except to point out that it has taken less than a day for a Ukrainian war related post to appear on 196 and for hexbear "Marxist Leninists" to start proudly proclaiming their pro Russia opinions. You give these people a platform by staying federated and they will do this, and whether or not you consider their opinions to be offensive is somewhat subjective (I do) they are at the very least a major vibe killer. Anyways, I was right and if this shit keeps popping up in my feed I'm out, peace.
I feel like every time I see a comment from hexbear, it's a tankie with the most insane take possible. I often see them use their emotes/memes not to add to a conversation, but to deflect or avoid directly responding to criticism. I also keep seeing entire comment threads taken over by hexbear as soon as one of them replies to someone. Almost like a bat signal goes out to call in reinforcements. I'm sure that's mostly a product of them being terminally online and not necessarily malicious, but I have to block like ten hexbear users for every one I come across that isn't like that.
It's worth noting that most of the hexbear users I see are under politics stuff posted on large instances like .world and .ml, so these issues may be less prevalent or even non-existent on posts hosted on blahaj.zone. But fuck I really hate the energy they bring on. Honest to god I almost stopped using lemmy altogether because of how bad it gets under most of the posts I come across. I'm sure a lot of hexbear users are fine, but I don't like constantly blocking half of a comment section because the tankies came out of the woodworks to say some dumb shit about Ukraine or whatever. I doubt I'm the only one constantly blocking tankies from hexbear.
I'm mostly posting this to see if others feel the same way or have had similar experiences. I've searched for posts about hexbear a couple times over the past week and haven't seen one until here right now. I'm going through the first post from two days ago and it seems like I might just be coming across a very loud minority from their instance. If that's the case, then defederating seems extreme and unnecessary. But if this is just what most of hexbear is like, I'd prefer to defederate and let the non-tankies make a new account here or on another instance that we federate with.
Update after two days: I'm officially casting my vote as "defederate from hexbear please god," final answer. The tankies and trolls are exhausting and I'm sick and tired of dealing with them. Either they can't be reigned in or they simply aren't. It's not even just their politics. Now that I've been thinking consciously "is this comment's bad politics indicative of the whole instance" I've noticed that a lot of people from hexbear are kind of just assholes. I don't want to deal with them anymore. "The good ones" can make another account here or somewhere that we federate with. But honest to god, most of their instance is a drain on my mental health and I can see that I'm not the only one from blahaj zone that feels that way.
I know they come off as trans-friendly, but they also let tankies run defense for authoritarian countries that don't treat queer people like me well. If hexbear keeps up like this I'm just gonna stop using lemmy altogether. Logging on isn't worth the excruciation of dealing with their instance. I know Ada wants solidarity with other trans-friendly instances, but I don't think the tankies and trolls at hexbear care about that, and I don't think the rest of their instance cares enough to get them to chill out. It feels like they're taking advantage of blahaj zone's charitability to keep vomiting authoritarian apologetics and brigading any comments or posts that call out that behavior. Dealing with that isn't what I signed up for.
In the interest of transparency, this comment was at 38 upvotes when I added this update.
Hexbear is... a lot. It really does feel like they swarmed the last thread. I wish there were a way to lock threads to the local instance.
They seem to really take glee in harassment of "liberals". Their justification of "if we are harassing you you deserve it" doesn't hold a lot of water for me, because they seem to harass anyone who doesn't think the exact same way as them. I certainly get the hostility towards liberals, but while that's all well and good in their little quarantine zone over there now that they're in the larger Threadiverse their whole "dunking on libs" thing just makes lemmy an exhausting place to be.
And then they turn around and mock everyone for being bothered by their hostility. I want to like Hexbear, but I'm not sure whether they're good federationmates.
I hope we don't have to defed, but if Ada decides to it'll certainly be earned.
I'd honestly still prefer defederation. If they were malignant on their own instance that's one thing, but they made this instance feel pretty unwelcome to me, and I've seen way too many red flags to be able to be comfortable having them around. Trans solidarity is no reason to put up with abuse. I know I'm not really an active participant here so this is more or less meaningless to most, but I'd rather leave and go through my transition alone than to stay and have to deal with their terminally online behavior. I don't think it should be our responsibility to rehabilitate them, nor do I think that's possible given the relative size of our instances.
Edit: I also feel it's worth pointing out that they've been defederated from several other instances for malignant behavior and I've seen all of that here.
Edit 2: Just saw we're staying federated with them, so it looks like this is my stop. To all of the fine people here at blåhaj.zone, thanks so much for being a bunch of cool people, I never really chimed in but you all just living your lives helped me figure out a lot of stuff about myself, and I wish you all nothing but the best! I can't stay a member of an instance that welcomes tankies though, so happy trails.
I will summarize my views that I left on the first thread:
- While I do not agree with mandatory pronoun marking, or with needing to have one's neopronouns approved, the number of Hexbear users with neopronouns in their names indicates that the instance is extremely pro-trans and inclusive of all non-binary identities.
- Ada has very poorly handled the response to her "people of NATO" statement in a way that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth regarding the administration of Blåhaj Lemmy. I have noticed that a comment left by a Hexbear user saying "death to Nazis and transphobes" is gone now as well, which if this was an act of a Blåhaj Lemmy administrator, further reflects poorly on Blåhaj Lemmy's administration.
- For as much as I've enjoyed some of Hexbear's communities, such as !transenby_liberation@hexbear.net, Hexbear users have often been weird, annoying, or wrong as well. However, I do not think that being weird, annoying, and wrong is cause for defederation, and would prefer that defederation be reserved for illegal content and neo-Nazis, lest we create a culture that is hegemonic in its beliefs and values.
- The ideal solution is for individual users to be able to block Hexbear, but this appears to only be possible using uBlock Origin and half-possible with one of the mobile clients for Lemmy. Until this becomes a feature of Lemmy itself, I believe that Hexbear should be defederated if this is the will of a majority of Blåhaj Lemmy users.
I will also state that I am biased in my views due to the fact that I am an anarchist who doesn't use the word "tankie", I am very strongly opposed to respectability/civility politics, and I am very careful about SIFTing every bit of news that appears on my feed. For these reasons, my experiences with Hexbear and its users will be markedly different from those with differing views or social media practices, a number of whom report experiencing "harassment, brigading, disinformation, and bad faith arguments". I am sure that these people are being honest, but I can only speak from my own experience.
Lastly, I would like to note that I read that a number of Hexbear users were opposed to federation to begin with, due to the potential disruption this could be for the site's culture, and as Hexbear's culture (e.g. emojis, which improperly scale on other instances) are taken to other sites. It is therefore my conjecture that some fraction of Hexbear users may be intentionally going against their admins' words and being annoying on other instances specifically in order to get Hexbear defederated. I do not fully understand Hexbear's culture or site politics, so I would prefer to hear from Hexbear users on this matter: since this thread is local-only, Hexbear users may wish to send me a DM explaining the controversy on their site regarding federation, and if my conjecture has any merit.
I may edit this comment with other thoughts as they come to me.
Edit: I received this DM from a Hexbear user regarding federation politics on the site. I am sharing this with his permission. I will create an audio version upon request.
Relevant links in the DM:
@JohnBrownsBussy2@hexbear.net also sent me a message reading, "[...] Also, it looks like our admins have posted new rules concerning federated conduct. Some people are being grouchy about it, but I do think moderation is going to improve: https://hexbear.net/post/352119?scrollToComments=false"
It would be a shame to defederate them. While they can be abrasive and a bit trolly at times, I think they add very diverse opinions and insights compared to the rest of the community. The most thought provoking comments I've read during my time here have come from hexbear users, even if I think it's a nonsensical take it's at least unique to me.
The brigading in the other post probably pissed a bunch of people off, but I couldn't help but find humour in that whole situation. It didn't seem too bad, just mildly annoying. It doesn't feel like it's a widespread enough issue to warrant defederating, but only time will tell I guess.
I hadn't noticed an issue with hexbear until the recent post. They definitely gave me a bad impression of their whole instance with their behavior.
I definitely think defederation is in order. Unless I'm mistaken, the most their admins have done to stop the brigading has been a comment on the post saying to stop interacting. No post on hexbear, nothing.
They seem like a bunch of shitty trolls. Acceptance of trans people aside, there's not really a reason to continue to federate with an instance like that.
EDIT: they just added to their code of conduct disallowing the kind of behavior we saw yesterday. Still unsure if remaining federated is a good idea
Being completely honest here, I don't think we should defederate from them. I don't see a point why. They are clearly pro-LGBTQ+, have huge support to our fellow trans brethren.
It also rubs me wrong in every single way to outright scrutinize one of the oldest still active Lemmy Instances, we all have to clearly remember which folks precursor the majority of us. Those being the left wing folks, we should respect their space and we respect theirs, otherwise it will be like mocking them to their faces. I have seen it with many others users treating them like garbage, how about we don't? It is like inviting guests to your house and them stealing that home and turning it the way they want, and when you complain they start spurting crap about you being horrible, etc, etc.I have said this one, and I will say this again;
For fuck's sake keep your mouth shut, and move on(This doesn't apply to fascists/conservatives). (This comment is not meant to come as rude, I am just stating my honest opinion.)
Why would anybody thank them for doing nothing but spam propaganda and huge emojis and brigading? Absolutely delusional. The instance I'm from defederated from them and it's been a night and day difference. You guys should do the same.
My opinion is please defederate, thank you
I believe in blahaj-hexbear unity and I think we should all hug
Putting this down as it may be relevant. It was posted very recently:
I have never had or seen an interaction with another instance that makes me want to defederate them. I'm sure there are vaild reasons for defederating some instances, but defederating with every community that has trolls in it will eventually have us disconnected from every instance.
I would not even call Hexbear extremists or allies, they are just plain trolls who use leftist arguments and tone policing to establish themselves as superior. The current thread on the supposed ableism that is being argued is a clear example of that: Tone policing, forcing absolute rules on who can and who can't use their dialects, moral judgement on strangers based on absurd rules, and not to mention the flooding and baiting that has been done so far. They are the equivalent of a SomethingAwful leftism, loud, demanding and pointless.
Voting for defederation, if only to clean up the mess that they've been making.
I want to give them a chance, I liked most of the times I came across them aside from the previous thread. The previous thread was pretty concerning though ngl - I don't think they intended to brigade but it still happened. I want to have solidarity with them, but so far, coexisting with them has been hard for a lot of people here. I'm hoping they settle down somewhat and listen to their admins requests such as staying out of c/main discussions and not spamming emojis, so it doesn't have to come to defederation.
I shared what I learned about Hexbear in the previous thread. As far as interacting with Hexbear goes, if we keep our interactions to sharing memes and support for trans people then I think we will be fine. I like the idea of getting along with them, but they have to meet us in the middle. If they continue to be disingenuous about their political views then I think we will have problems.
If you want my honest opinion, tolerating tankies is not worth whatever kind of project you want to build. I think we should unite forces with trans people on trans issues sure, but giving a platform to tankies ain't it. They'll poison discussions, as they already have, name-call and take-over whatever thread they do not like. They like to put on a nice face to avoid being deferated, but I doubt it'll last.
