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In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi's that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here's a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
is all of this compiled anywhere else? bullet points or something with links?
i believe it, but i won't spread it unless i can verify it.
Yes this video is actually addressing his article which is filled with links and evidence:
Netanyahu’s War on Truth - Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
If you skip the chapter "intelligence failures" and go straight to "Information warfare" you'll find evidence for all his claims in the video.
the entire article fully formatted in markdown
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
Being an asshole rarely brings people to your side
You're right I have repeated myself a lot over the last months which tends to get tiring but this person might not yet be up to date.
I will rephrase my previous comment thank you for pointing it out.
So what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi's that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can't say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go "your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages", which couldn't be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
You mean all those videos are fake?
No. Misinformed. Most of them were real videos but were not related to palestine or israel.
Is the video where toilet boxes at the music festival are getting shooted at not related to Palestine or Israel?
Can you provide a link?
Video: Hamas releases footage of music festival carnage, gunmen shoot at toilets - India Today https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/hamas-desert-rave-party-music-festival-south-israel-video-attack-toilets-palestine-war-2448868-2023-10-14
Looks legit but guess who was not using single bullets. Also you linked an indian article, dont do that if you are asked for a source. India today looks like another month piece of Modi's fascist govt.
Many of the videos are real. Hamas definitely shot some civilians. The problem is all the burnt bodies.
If you ask the question "How did Israel count 250 burnt Hamas fighters as Israeli civilians" the narrative falls apart.
I don't think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I'd like to ask a question "is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?".
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a "hamas doesn't care about Palestinians" narrative, than any other explanation would fit the "Israel doesn't care about Israeli" narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
What are you talking about? Did you see Gaza population charts for last years?
There's a similar fallacy that's often applied to USSR under Stalin: when you compare populations in 1930 to 1934, IE appx the length of the devastating famine they experienced, you'll see that it declined something like 20% over that time. People who generate propaganda about communism will say that something like 30 million people died during it, by subtracting the numbers, and ignoring the fact that birth rates had been steadily dropping for years as the famine grew worse. What actually happened is that 5-8 million died, and 22 million were never born.
My point being that it is inherently pretty misleading to use population data as the majority of your evidence. The most reliable evidence we have, IE our eyes and ears, shows us that Israel is deliberately harming and often killing Palestinians, under the logic of being a superior race. We can quibble about data all you like, the fact is that Israel is most certainly committing genocide.
I understand what you mean here, but what you stated before basically means that somebody assumed that without October 7 attack, Palestinians will die out.
This reminds me how Putin mentioned that one of reasons for his invasion was that Ukraine bombed Lugansk and Donetsk for 8 years, while freely available data shows that during last few years there were only about 20 casualties per year. This can't justify the aggression, same as the above can't justify the October 7 attack.
I saw all the videos of Oct7.
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
How many hostages does Israel hold?
So is it okay to propose that hamas could have a success if they captured the same amount?
No israel would still kill all the hostages held by Hamas. Their government doesn't care about hostages.
Did hamas know that all along?
Hamas knows that the israeli government will try their best to kill all israeli hostages, this is known as the Hannibal directive.
But they hoped the israeli populace would pressure their government harder
Hamas knows that the israeli government will try their best to kill all israeli hostages
That is unlikely as there is no record of that directive being (allegedly) invoked after 2016 towards civillians.
But they hoped the israeli populace would pressure their government harder
Pressure their government harder to do what exactly?
I watched a few minutes of your video. For the love of all that is holy, Gaza is not a concentration camp - they are not being forced into slavery, gassed, tortured, experimented upon and systematically killed. It’s not even an “open air prison”. What are you people talking about? How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about first hand??
They are being kept there, they are not allowed to leave. Normally I would call that a prison, but prison would imply that they were convicted of a crime, which they weren't. They are kept there, because Israel considers Palestinians to be an undesirable ethnicity. That is a concentration camp. You are conflating concentration camp with the nazi death camps.
Kept? What are they animals to you? Who said they can’t leave?
Palestinians with dual nationality might be able to leave, but most of them can't just leave. Gaza is surrounded by blockades imposed by Israel and Egypt, which restrict movement. Israel prevents access to and from Gaza by sea and air. Land movement is restricted to three crossings: the Egypt-controlled Rafah crossing and Erez and Kerem Shalom crossings, which Israel controls.
The blockades exist due to Gaza being governed by a terrorist organization, but I wouldn’t make a blanket statement that Gazans are all forced to stay there. Hell, hundreds of thousands of them were routinely coming into Israel for work. Voting for and electing a terror organization whose main goal is openly eradicating all of Israel and Jews might create some emigration problems though.
No Palestinians can leave! what blockade?
Actually Palestinians can't leave because they're all Hamas
pick one
That's also why they aren't letting the rodents leave, the rodents are also Hamas. And obviously, hospitals and churches are well known to be the highest ranking members of Hamas.
What? You might wanna rephrase the first one otherwise I don’t even know what point you’re failing to make.
your a parinoid Genocide supporter and you might want to rethink your positions before you find yourself on the wrong side of history forever, If you belive in a maker, with an afterlife, they will judge you, they will judge you harshly and you will most certanly find yourself in the worst possible version of said afterlife, asuming ofcorse you belive in it, repent now.
your claims are paridoxical and all fall into a typical facistic fraimowrk of the enemy is both strong and weak, everywhere and now where, can do and is free to do what they want, and cannot because they are all terrorists,
a half ounce of self reflection would go along way for you
most citizens of Isn'treal have dule citizenship, why do you genocidal manachs just leave.
also is Hamas in the room right now?
also agian, Eradicating a genocidal state is a noble goal, and the only place saying their goal is eradication of jews is Isn'treal who also says that critisizing them is tantimout to anti-semitism, when there is a stronger historical connection to zionism and anti-semitism
the closed borders on both sides,
the fact Isn'treal has been providing "safe locations" then promptly bombing them in violation if international law
the fact Isn'treal has been bombing hospitals and schools in violation of international law
also no one here has said anything about them being animals ... but the Isn'treal government has... a mark of a genocidal government.
I mean, there's still some shit going on.
A group of UN “experts” (which are independent people) demanded an investigation. Why would that be evidence of anything?
The ICJ found that there was Genocide and Ruled that Isn'treal must take all steps practicle to stop the genocide, why have you not done that yet?
You’re half right. They did say Israel (come on man you can do it, spell right) must take all steps to stop a genocide from happening (because there isn’t one happening right now) and they demanded Hamas release all hostages. Why have you not done that yet?
I mean first, I need to point out that that Isn'treal was convicted genocide.
I would also like to point out that the "hostages" potentialy could be called Prisoners of war, have been demonstrated as safer with Hamas as the IOF has shot released POWs who have come under a white flag to the IOF
People are locked in a camp
People are bombed to death
People are starved to death
How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about at all?
Are you denying that the Holocaust happened because you weren't there first hand?
What is arrogant about what I said?
Oh ok you’re a bot. Got it.
Answer the damn questions
Listen buddy, this is not what I’m looking for. I was entertaining the idea of debating with pro Palestinians but I have zero interest in speaking with someone pro Hamas. It’s like wanting to talk to a member of ISIS. No thank you.
I am not hearing answers to questions like "why Isn'treal is destroying food" and "why isn'treal is not allowing medicine in" and "why Isn'treal is bombing hospitles and schools" and " why Isn'treal is giving a location for a safe zone then promptly bombing a safe zone" ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTIONS
Zionist Debating AKA Get completely destroyed, quickly call everyone a bot and run away
Did I break the AI?
Sorry to burst your bubble
Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren't then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Exactly, its not Israel that started this war, if you go stab a bear its not really the bears fault when it mauls you.
The bear isn't a democratic society with moral obligations not to commit ethnic cleansing.
Do you think the history of Palestinian/Israeli relations started last October? Lmao.
Ya, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel for nearly 80 years, and they were murdering Jews for centuries before that too.
And Israel the state has been murdering Palestinians for nearly 80 years as well.
This conflict is mentioned in the Quran, this holy war has been going on for thousands of years.
Are you comfortable with Israel killing, injuring, and destroying the homes, businesses, and communities of Gazans?
Of course I'm not but I'm also not surprised that its happening after Oct 7. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire, from both sides, and then hash out some kind of diplomatic compromise. Not up to me though
I would also like a cease fire. Or truce. An armistice or something that creates a short term and then a long term peace where the Palestinians can have the freedoms that the Israelis have. Though that may be too much to ask.
I can't explain Hamas' thinking for the actions of Oct. 7th. But I can see, if we work your analogy, that they didn't just go out to poke a bear. Rather, the bear has been menacingly hovering over Palestinians after coming into the home and swiping at them for decades. They can either die slowly doing nothing, or fight back knowing that they can be morally injured. Meanwhile, all your neighbors are saying you should let the bear live peacefully in your home. In fact, the city council made a plan for that to happen. Enen your friends are like, "The bear isn't that bad." So you fight back. And your friends aren't on team bear anymore. And some neighbors are like "WTF bear!" And none of that happens without knifing the bear.
We’d love to meet Hamas alone on a battlefield. Can you set it up?
I mean I would love for a Genocide to stop happening from a Setteler colonial nation, who seems hell bent on the extermination of a multi-religious group of people,(because yes there where and are palistianian jews) can you please set that up?
Nice try Ret. General Gantz! We know you'd rather push the Palestinians into the sea.
Yeah, yeah we’d rather kill all Palestinians, sure. Cause Jews are so evil forcing their religion and culture on everybody else, killing and beheading people in the name of their god in a war against democracy, liberalism, equal rights and “the west”.
who said anything about Jews, We are talking about Isn'treal here, 1) stop conflaiting the 2
second OMFG your second sentence is so ubelevably racist
Benny.. c'mon my friend! We know what you want. Just say it. It's freeing. Don't hide behind deflection.
I. want. pro Palestinians to explain why they think Israel wants to exterminate Palestinians while ignoring Hamas’s slogan for the eradication of Israel and Jews. It’s reverse psychology right? If we would say that we want to erase Gaza then you’d believe we have good intentions, right?
Erasure of Isn'treal, a genocidal state 1) is not the eresure or genocide of Jews, and 2) is a noble and honorable goal
Erasure of Isn'treal, a genocidal state 1) is not the eresure or genocide of Jews, and 2) is a noble and honorable goal >
Oh. Ok then. I wish I had seen this comment of yours first to know to disregard anything else you say.
I mean, I wrote it last, and your view point is laughable as all get out, because you seem to keep equating Judism with the existance with Isn'treal.... also the removal of Genocide is not bad.
no Isnt'real started it when they where doing the slow genocide, you cannot blame an opressed group for fighting their opression. your poking the bear analigy in no way holds up. Isn'treal was not minding its buisness it was before the opporation still activly genoicing the palistinians.
“Isn’treal” he said while wafting up and smelling his own Cheeto farts
Look, Would you rather I use the correct name of a state that has been founded from day one on genociding the palistinians?
Yes please. Otherwise it’s cringy. Nobody is “genociding” your precious Palestinians man. It was founded for Jews to have a safe place. But it’s kinda hard when all Muslim countries surrounding it keep poking it and getting their asses kicked. Hey if we wanted it to be fair there should be as many Christian countries as Muslim and Jewish and Buddhist and atheist etc. countries. But unfortunately Jews have been “genocided” for thousands of years and they only have one tiny country to call home in a sea of Arab.
Look man, I have no care about being "cringy" I think your complet lack of human empathy or geoplolitical understanding is cringe, but that is not the reason I am arguing.
No the reason Isn'treal was founded (yes I am doubling down on it) was a fuffilment of Zionism, at the time was seen as a deeply anti-semetic idea, and it arguably still is, it is we do not want the Jews near us, Their only argument for it is that the tora talked about it their, and may I point out that it is rediculous that we would use a holy book as justification for kicking people who where living in an area already out of their homes. Palistine already existed as the Palistinian Mandate, it was a mandate under the UK as a comprimise after WW1 for the dissilusion of the Ottoman empire, between self determination of the locals, and the empire building of the great powers of the time, so the idea being is it would be the UK's in name only. Isn'treal soon after they took over the Mandate of Palistine, did the Nakba, removal of all political rights and posessions, and forced migrations into the gettos, massicers and killings, destruction of importion cultrual and comunity sights, and this, Fimbulwinter, is why their neighbors dislike them, this event right here,
If you are curious the reason why there are so many isalmic nations in the area, we can look at the ottoman empire, I also want to point out that their are 0 Athiest nations, a large amount of Christian nations.
So yes Isn'treal has been genocidal from day one, you can even ask the first person they asked to be president Albert Einstine who refused on the basis of the being genocidal.
Hey man, your reason and logic aren't going to hold up to the Qatari and Iranian Propaganda. Doesn't matter that one side rejected the deal offered at the start, doesn't matter that one side refuses to acknowledge the other sides existence. This is the time when people can shit on Jews, err I mean Zionists and feel good about themselves.
The oppressor narrative is pretty hilarious when you put it into the context of a simple map showing Arab countries vs non Arab countries in the region. Next we'll start hearing about how those countries all converted without a single drop of blood LMFAO.
Being opposed to a LITERAL GENNOCIDE is not Qatari or Iranian propoganda, it is having a simple moral compass.
Also there is a considerable difrence between Zionists and Jews and if you do not understand that there is a problem
3rd untill fairly recently Zionism was considered anti-semetic... and it arguably is anti-semetic
4th I have heard no one say that the conversion to Islam was without wars, are you saying that we need to do a GENOCIDE to get that? really man?
You either need to learn what the word literally means or you need to reread the ICJ ruling.
There's no genocide happening. If there were, don't you think the court would have ruled for a ceasefire or a stopage like they did in Ukraine.
You fallen for the propaganda. You're not alone, but that doesn't make you right.
As for Zionism being anti-Semitic, the majority of the world's Jews would disagree with you. Zionism The goal of Jews to have self-determination. Israel provides them that. Anyway, you attempt to twist that is taking that definition away from the way it's understood by the vast majority of non morons in this world.
They are unable to irder a cesefire as Hamas is not under their jurisdiction, what they can do, and what they did do is order Isn'treal to stop the genocide and take all mesures to prevent it from happening, that they have.
I understand what propoganda is, and I understand how you could think I have fallen for it, but what has happened is I know the Deffinition of genocide ... and I have Eyes, and Ears, they both fuction, I also have a functioning brain that knows how to process information. I am starting to learn that this is a rare and scarce resource to posess.
As for the idea being anti-semetic, my claim is 1 that before the end of ww2 the idea of Zionism was heavily linked with Anti-Semitism, and 2) that as far as I can tell that has not changed significantly changed. If you would like Cambridge has an article about how there was a strong link between Zionism Anti-Semitism and Nazism. I have not seen any reason to see this as having changed. Now I apreciate your attack on my charicter and mental state of mind, but if you would like to take up the case of moron with Cambrage I would love to hear it ...
Sources https://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/83924/frontmatter/9780521883924_frontmatter.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240216-pre-01-00-en.pdf
Thanks man. I needed to hear that.