Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million
Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million
‘It’s too powerful a technology’
‘It’s too powerful a technology’
Oh boy, Travis Worthington comes off as such a selfish asshole in this interview. Paraphrased, and being a bit unfair to him, he just kind of says, “oh, we know fine well that we are benefiting from stealing art from others, and I’d really like if you believed that I cared about that, but the reality is that I don’t really give a shit, and if you’re an illustrator, just give up on your dreams of getting a job someday, because I certainly won’t be paying you”
Definitely gonna be avoiding indie games studios from now on.
So because of one asshole you are dismissing all indies?
The company name is indie game studios. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamepublisher/39914/indie-game-studios
I'm glad that you asked this question, because I also was like "wow, seems a bit extreme" before I saw people replying to you that that's the studio name
Frankly, it's an absurd question. Has Polygon obtained consent from all of the artists for the works used by its own human artists as inspiration or reference? Of course not. To claim that any use of an image to train or influence a human user is stealing is to warp the definition of the word beyond any recognition. Copyright doesn't give you exclusive ownership over broad thematic elements of your work because, if it did, there'd be no such thing as an art trend.
Then what's the studio having its name dragged through the mud for? For using a computer to speed up development? Is that a standard that Polygon wants to live up to as well?
Totally agree, but where the line is, I think, is that companies want free lunch: they want to leverage a mind-like thing (either a human brain or a trained AI) that has internalized a ton off content that it can use to generate new content from, but they don't ever want to pay them or treat them like a living being.
If these AI models ever become advanced enough that people actually consider them to be alive or conscious or something, suddenly the tables will turn, and companies will be fighting against their ethical treatment. It will basically be another, much more philosophically difficult, slavery debate, and we all know which side the corporations will be on.
Or maybe it's simply a false equivalence we all need to accept. Maybe creativity can exist independent from a conscious brain, or maybe it's just a vulnerability in human consciousness to look at these stochastic arrangements of data and say "that looks inspired".
Either way, in 300 years our progenitors will look back at us and think, "wow, I can't believe they thought that was ok. Clearly it was just a different time."
Humans and computers see and understand artwork completely differently. If you tasked both a human and a computer to look at a painting for 10 milliseconds and asked them to recreate it from memory, how accurate would their reproductions be? It is completely wrong and very misleading to equate human learning with machine learning. They are completely different processes.
This is the beginning of the end friend.
People who use AI will create a better cheaper product and at the end of the day its use as a new technology is justified. You'll be clinging to an ever smaller raft and eventually have to abandon your ideals.
And at the end of the day art is not stolen when used to train a machine. Copyright itself is an artificial legal construct, and it's the right to redistribute, not the right to learn from art. You can't invent rights out of thin air and get any when they're broken
People who use AI will create a better cheaper product
i feel like this assumes that there will still be human produced art to train on to improve the genAI model when there isnt any incentive for humans to spend so much time to learn to make art when it can be used for training and when machines can churn out pieces at a faster cheaper rate
(c) Restrictions. You may not ... (iii) use output from the Services to develop models that compete with OpenAI;
from section 2ciii of OpenAI's Terms of Use somehow while its justifiable for corporations to use human produced work to train a machine that competes with humans, using corporate machine produced work to train a competing machine is not
Not better and cheaper, but cheaper faster and worse. And that's what a lot of dodgy business care about.
The artwork on some of the Terraforming Mars cards already has a janky, AI-generated look, frankly.
From the interview, all the artists originally used free stock art as a base in the first place. They've just expanded their... breadth.
I actually think this brings up a good point. Artists they hire for these tabletop game jobs will end up using AI to create a base image or backgrounds and edit it for the project one way or another. They'll do it to increase their own output and income.
Edit: And guys like this will pay you less to extract more profits from you with that in mind of course.
What a terrible interview. The interviewer literally repeatedly asks questions that they've already answered and shows pretty clearly that they haven't bothered actually researching or trying AI art technology. They certainly seemed to have read plenty of articles about how bad AI is, but didn't even bother scratching the surface of how it's actually used.
It reads like a hit piece coming from someone who only reads what comes up in their feed.
What I'm hearing is that the images in the game can't be copyrighted and any of their competitors can use them with impunity. Awesome.
You'd be making a mistake there. AI elements can't be copyrighted, but human-created elements can. There's also a line somewhere at which point AI generation is used as a tool to enhance hand-made art rather than to generate entire pieces wholesale.
Like, let's look at this Soul Token for my Planescape themed Conan Exiles server (still in development).
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1097400802764664843/1110453997413867560/image.png
I went into GIMP, drew a simple skull based on a design I found on google image search, slapped it on a very simple little circle, and popped it into NightCafe for some detail work. The end result is something I composed myself, with the most significant visual elements created by hand and spiced up a bit essentially using a big complicated filter. The result saved me hours and gave me one of many little in-game items to mod into my server that I never would have had the resources to produce in bulk otherwise as an independent developer.
Who owns it?
Well, I drew the skull after training myself on google image search data, but presumably my hand drawing of a fairly generic object still belongs to me. I drew the circle that makes up the coin itself, but NightCafe added some nicely lit metallic coloring, gave it a border, and turned my little skull into a gem. This, of course, requiring some prompt engineering and iteration on my part.
So is adding a texture and a little border detail enough to interfere with my ownership? Should it be? If I didn't hand-create enough of the work to constitute ownership, surely there's some point at which a vanishingly small amount of AI detail being added to the art doesn't eliminate the independent creation of the art itself. If I were to paint an elaborate landscape by hand and then AI generate a border for it, surely that border shouldn't eliminate the legitimacy of my contributions.
At some point, the difference between the use of AI and the use of a filter in an image editor becomes essentially non-existent. Yes, an AI can create a lot more from scratch, but in practical terms it's much easier to get it started with a bit of traditional art than it is to spend hours engineering prompts trying to get rid of weird extra eyeballs and spaghetti fingers.
I'd love to see a more elaborate discussion on this topic, but so far all we get is some form of 'AI bad!' and then some artists dropping a little bit of nuance without it really seeming to go anywhere.
This technology has the potential to elevate independent artists to the sort of productivity that only corporations, with their inherent inspiration-killing bureaucracy, could previously achieve. That's a good thing.
probably more suited for here !tabletop@beehaw.org
thanks bot, updated
From video gaming to card games and stuff in between, if it’s gaming you can probably discuss it here!
Ahh, thanks. I’m not in that group so I can’t get to it easily from kbin, so feel free to post it there!
Is there a way to link it to make it easier to access from Kbin?
Maybe it's @ sign instead of the "!"? Try this one and let's see: @tabletop@beehaw.org
Otherwise maybe someone else will come in and say if it's possible lol.
!boardgames@feddit.de / @boardgames@feddit.de is also pretty popular.
Best way to settle this issue would be to ensure that the companies that make these for-profit generators are made to profit share with the artists whos labor their models rely on to function.
This would probably help motivate the companies to gather their art more ethically as well, rather than just scraping the Internet blindly, and the end users of the service would be paying for the labor of the original artists.
