I spent seven years living in an apartment. I so enjoyed hearing the neighbors having sex, the thumping music they played, the smell of their cigarette smoke inside my apartment with all my windows closed, the random intrusions by management to repair something unrelated to my apartment, the random rent increases. Add this to the fact that I had no space for a work shop to make anything, and paying the equivalent of a mortgage with no equivalent home equity. Some people love apartment life, but it definitely was not for me.
What is going on in this comments section? Building dense is massively better for the environment than SFH, both in the construction phase and for the life of the units as far more residents can be served with less infrastructure sprawl. It also doesn't mean that detached housing will suddenly stop existing if we let developers build densely packed housing. Doesn't even need to be high rises, it can be townhomes, duplexes, five-over-ones, etc. You'll still be able to get a white picket fence suburban home or a farmhouse on some acreage if you want. In fact, it will become cheaper because all the people who want to live in cities will actually be able to move there and not take up space in that low density area you want to live in.
An island of this size should probably have neither.
Name one good reason the average apartment experience could ever be better than living in a house.
People live in apartments to afford shelter, you'd be hard-pressed to find one that actually likes it better.
Sure you can make arguments about the concept of centralized feeling being better for nature, but no one actually wants to do it.
I live in an apartment. I want to live in a house.
Cunt upstairs neighbour smoking cancer sticks on the balcony, making my room smell like shit when he does it, dumbass neighbour to my right who phones some other dumbass at 6 in the morning, screaming into his phone, waking me up. No garden, can't have a cat or a dog.
I don't want to live in a suburb where I am forced to use a car, but you can live in a house and still be able to get anywhere you want without a car.
A truth most people don't want to hear is that densely populated cities are overall better for nature and resources. You need less roads and tracks, fewer concrete overall, compact cities are much easier to make walkable, etc.
Really the only argument against tight packed cities is "I don't like people". That shouldn't really be a priority.
For nature to recover we need to give back space. The worst you can do is build rural homes or spread out suburbs.
Density doesn't save nature. Habitat protection laws save nature. Make sure that's part of the plan.
Also, the picture shows the saved nature very accessible to the density. This is not usually what these zoning plans have in mind.
Many important species, especially insects and their predators, can absolutely make good use of patchy suburban habitat if it is properly managed, moreso if it is networked, and natural space nearer homes benefits residents and the environment.
We can't keep saving mountaintops and deserts, we need to rehabilitate more of these nice valleys and riversides we all like to build cities on.
A lot of people are pro-apartmemt before living in one, so here are some fun facts:
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Apartments usually have a maintenance cost, that covers as little as possible while still costing a lot. You never really own the flat, the building company does.
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You often have a communal garden; it's looked after by the lowest bidding contractor. Not all flats have balconies, so you are unlikely to have your own.
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Fear of fire and flooding - if someone else messes up, your stuff is toast/soaked. Insurance companies love that extra risk, it gives them an excuse to charge more.
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No flat has good sound proofing - the baby screaming downstairs at 5am and the thunder of the morbidly obese person upstairs going to the bathroom at 1am will denote your new sleep schedule (i.e. disturbed)
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I hope you're in for deliveries - apartments have no safe spots to leave things.
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You will not be able to afford a flat with the same floor space as a house. I'm sorry, welcome to your new coffin.
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Good luck drying your laundry (spoiler, your living room is going to have a laundry rack).
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Good luck owning a bike (it's either the bike or your laundry, take your pick).
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Vocal intimacy becomes a community event.
Living in a flat is a pile of little miseries grouped together.
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It's simple: blocks are not built in cities to minimise the footprint like in your meme but to build cheaper and sell more and in the same time externalising the costs of infrastructure development.
A mid density block is something, a heavy packed "bedroom" neighborhood is another.
@Fried_out_Kombi The replies from US people in this thread are wild. You're really fucked over there. So much fucked that corporations have convinced you that living in an apartment is synonymous with paying rent. That's insane to me. In every other country I know you can own an apartment just like you can own a house.
This is a pretty terrible way to make this point. The pic on the left is neater and the one on the right leaves almost no space for the people living there to do anything. You probably want a little bit of cleared land for literally anything to do on the island.
Then again, there isn't a dock. So I figure the island on the right has a better way of building boats to leave.
If you look at land use maps, you will see that the urban areas are so small compared to the agricultural and livestock area needed to support the population. This is the biggest cause of deforestation, and population density actually makes it much worse, because it centralizes consumption and requires more logistic costs to deliver the needed food, with much higher rates of wastes. If we lived in less dense areas, perhaps we could do with local, smaller-scale agriculture instead.
My concern with multi unit living is that your home is now dependent on the actions of others. You could lose everything because some dumbass next to you dropped cigarette burning on their floor, or overflowed their tub.
It also just gets messy having that many people try to manage a property together. I lived in a high rise for a year. There was constant bickering over who put the wrong thing down the trash chute or who was using the elevator to move furniture without checking it out first. Everyone had to all agree to building repairs, which was a nightmare, and getting them them done took forever. From my understanding our building was pretty well run, but it didn't feel like it. I loved the idea of high rise life when I moved in but by the time we got out house I was ready to be done with it.
I mean is the building owned by its tenants or one entity/person who gets to own the building and a large amount of peoples homes thusly?
I mean there are genuine reasons you might want a house over an apartment. If you have a big family or the fact that you own it and don't have a land lord that can just raise rent and force you out. You gotta have a mix of types of housing that actually matches what the needs of the people are, which is still the exact problem we have now.
I work in municipal develpment.
The thing with developers is that they build that density, but over ALL of the land. Apartments kill more trees and create more impervious cover than any other type of housing.
Our city requires parkland dedication for development. Single-family developments build public parks and preserve trees wherever possible. Apartments just pay a fee in lieu for tree mitigation and parkland dedication and improvements because they absolutely will not have a millimeter of land not dedicated to housing.
If the people living in apartments had a say in how they were built... yeah
Nobody chooses to live in a fucking tin can hanging from suspension wires that is so poorly insulated you can hear every bird flying into the windows as though you're inside a bass drum.
The sounds of my neighbors at 3 am snoring are not a feature you can call part of the "shared experience."
The prospect of being trapped together because the elevator went out and there's a fire... oh so joyous. Not to mention all the people's pets that get left at home throughout the day and I can hear crying with desperation to be let out as though they're in the next room...
I'm quite happy not to live in a fucking modern apartment thank you very much.
I love my own yard with privacy and a firepit where I can get drunk, loud and high as a kite without anyone bothering me.
Apartment living was hell, it's what convinced me to get a house.
Best decision ever
Might be a silly question, but would it be better if we somehow turned suburbs into being more akin to rural towns? Like the suburbs could maybe have nearby town centers that they could walk to in 10-15 minutes that would allow small businesses to operate in.
I don’t live on the mainland, so no idea how it actually works.
In this image I can't help but notice how much infrastructure cost there is here. Consider need for water treatment pipes run to and from each house for water and sewage as well as sewage treatment infrastructure. Keep in mind that failure rate increases with each house and by length of these runs that you are adding and fire hydrants being added every so many feet, shut off valves. Don't forget that we now have significantly bigger demand for water as we now have a lot more vegetation to manage and a higher reliance on emergency services as we are spread out over a larger area so we now have to increase ems, fire, and police spending. Then you add the costs for electrical infrastructure with your sub stations and transformers and all the costs set to maintain that especially since these are underground lines apparently and ofcourse we have increased risk of failure again per service and foot run and higher demand on those services which will require more workers which turns into money being spent outside of the community. You then add the cost of data lines and phone lines including the costs associated with maintaining and upgrading those which are also apparently underground which means your upgrades may be significantly more expensive and will take much longer to deploy. Now that we have all these houses separated we will now have a population that will be more dependent on vehicles so now we have to factor in all of our road maintenance costs and our public services will not require far more vehicles as well which means we will also need mechanics to repair and maintain these vehicles. Now with roads alone when we consider the costs involved things get rather expensive quickly. Cost to maintain roads, even roads that are seldom used, is surprisingly expensive and require a lot of workers to build and maintain as well as vehicles, machinery, and land to store, recycle, and create materials needed to repair and build the roads. On top of that there is also an often missed statistic of vehicles which is public safety as they are a leading cause for injury which is another stressor on our little community.
This is far from all the possibly missed costs of our suburban/rural neighborhood but I feel these are some of the important ones people live to overlook.
Condos and Housing coops go a long way I think to reduce some of the pain points most people have had with apartment living. The issue now is that most people are comparing owning a home where you have a lot of control over your circumstances and price stability, vs having a landlord that is doing the minimum and raising rents every chance they can. If apartments were built for people, and not landlords would they still have cramped hallways and balconies, would they have poor insulation and sound proofing, would they have old noisy AC units, etc, etc. The thing is, even in cases where people do choose to not have an amenity, people still had the choice.
The island on the right probably isn't as hot either.
When I see the image what came to mind was that experiment where they had an overpopulation of rats in a cage and how all of the rats turned on each other and killed each other.
Too much human density is not good. You have to be sure to get the percentage of humans to a acre of land just right, to prevent the rats situation.
Nature is important, but Humanity moreso.
Thank you for explaining why suburbs suck. Also, the mass of people flooding an area all at once is just a niceness.
I would think looking at this comment section most individuals on this sub hate cars, but love homes with large driveways and massive streets. To drive the cars we hate?
Mid-density apartment are a thing, maybe 4-6 floors tall.
Though north america apartment design is another issue IMO. North america apartment floor plates are unfortunately not designed for families. When was the last time you saw a 3 or 4 bedroom apartment?
Edit: I should add, when was the last time you saw a 3 or 4 bedroom apartment that cost less then a full size family home in the suburbs.
I'd rather live in my own few acres of forest with a creek running through it and a big house.
Lmao what are these comments, are lemmers thicker than redditors?
Give me a European style apartment with high ceilings and generous space and you have yourselves a deal!
That said, I've been working in my local building industry for almost 20 years and the trend that I see is that though there are more apartments being built, the quality has tanked. We have huge issues with mould, flammable facades, exploding glass, alternatives are rampant through the roof and price gouging.
Unfortunately this has fed the idea that apartment living is no good.
Yeah, try living in an impoverished town, where it's the housing on the right, spread out like the housing on the left. There are, like, no jobs (none that are actually sustainable long-term for living in this economy), but they just leveled a huge area of forest for more low-income housing (AKA Projects)
I live in a flat and it sucks. I'll probably move to living in a car eventually.
And they look like they were made in 2000s oppressive architecture
The US has about 10 million square kilometers
That's 10 million x 1 million square meters (10^13 )
There will soon be (source: people like sex) 10 billion people on earth (10^10 )
This would give you 10^13 / 10^10 = 10^3 square meters (10700 square feet) of land for everyone on earth to live on. EVERY SINGLE PERSON. Not families, individual fucking people.
All of them contained within the US.
10700 square feet to build a house, have a small garden etc. Okay, not a lot. But that's one country that could house everyone. An extreme example of course - you're not gonna be able to use all that land, some of it is uninhabitable (red states lol). But just imagine it for a second, everyone living in one country would still be comfortable. And look how much is left of the rest of the world.
1000 square meters isn't enough space? Make your house have 4 stories, who gives a shit, make your own wizard tower. In a relationship? That's 21400 square feet for the couple. Have a couple of kids? 42800 square feet. That's a decent enough house+yard for 4 people, especially if you add one or two floors.
The problem is not that there isn't enough space. The problem is that some motherfuckers want and get more than their share of square feet. And then they charge you money to live in their share of land without owning it.
Here, buying an apartment makes you liable for any structural issues to the whole building, it's a huge risk and with how terrible build quality is these days I'd never buy an apartment
There are many highrise buildings in Australia with residents paying hundreds of thousands each for issues caused by dodgy builders. The builder simply closes the business during the warranty period and they are off the hook for claims
I mean, yeah, apartments and such should be widely available. Awesome for high population areas, young folks, temporary housing situations, etc. Had a flat for years and will for at least a few more. However, as a drummer (and general loud music enthusiast) I am very ready to get out of the flat and get into a proper house with a basement, garage, patio for grilling with da boyes, etc.
A good mix of both is ideal. I sure wish we took better measures to mitigate the insane housing prices tho'. Sick of thin walls and and a single room trying to replace 4 rooms.
Assuming the needs of a living space is the same across both populations, this graphic seems disingenuous. The pixel count of the apartment suggests it could fit 6½ of the homes per floor. Across 9 floors that's 58 homes worth of square footage.
I assume the homes have garages, which would not account for living space. But garages don't account for 42% of a homes' size.
I would prefer a middle ground where you have town homes for more privacy and room for families. Everything is still walkable, you preserved more green space, but everyone isn't crammed into tiny pods.
I want to see this graphic with an added 3rd panel showing the difference between homes, apartments and arcologies.
I'd rather see more than just housing if I have to live on a tiny fucking island.
Sorry, but fuck this idea in its entirety. This would allow for MORE apartment buildings to be built, since that is how capitalism works, which results in more damage to the surrounding wildlife. L
We need more regulations, and we need a more conscious approach to our housing in general. We should be approaching this with symbiosis in mind, cooperating with nature rather than bending it to our will.
Those houses on the left? Yeah, you could cram so many actual gardens that give you actual food and which could bring so much biodiversity, but we sticking to flat, pure grass gardens that do nothing other than be flat and look green. Fuck everything here.
Single family homes need to be banned from cities.
Nice try landlord
How about apartments for people who want to live in apartments, and houses for people who want to live in houses, and proper civil engineering to limit sprawl?
Why does it always have to be black or white? There's a shade of gray here that's closer to the apartment model, but that would still allow freedom of travel. Public transportation SUCKS ASS. Cars are a central identity to Americans. They are part of our culture. Not having them just means everyone feels like another bee in the hive.
neither is good. A leads to sprawl. B leads to crime.
Yeah, but which one is sustainable inside the game?
Do you dare come say this here in Scandinavia please? FYI, you will suffer the date of Vigo the Carpathian, but I promis to erect a nice slab of stone for you.
Might be a silly question, but would it be better if we somehow turned suburbs into being more akin to rural towns? Like the suburbs could maybe have nearby town centers that they could walk to in 10-15 minutes that would allow small businesses to operate in.
Nah. I'm sorry, but fuck apartments. I was spending $22k a year. Apartment complex did a crap job clearing snow in the winter. My neighbors were disgusting. I had to walk across the complex to get to my laundry room, where the machines rarely worked. The AC wall units were expensive to run, and did little to cool the apartment. The downstairs neighbor's front door slammed every time they closed it. The people next door would vacuum for an hour every night starting at 10pm. I got a $45 fine for hanging a beach towel over a chair on my balcony.
I mean shit, they decided to renovate the apartment beneath me, and turned off my heat and left for the weekend in the middle of winter. They turned off my water multiple times with no notice making me late for work. And then the construction workers stole my package before heading home.
I bought a house. Every time I pay my mortgage I build equity in my home. I have my own laundry room. I may have to clear the snow myself, but I have plenty of space to store a snow blower and shovels - something I could never do before. I can buy bulk sized non perishables too and save money, because I have plenty of space to store it. I can sleep at night without being awoken by my neighbors fucking to the sounds of Bob Marley. I can hang up a towel to dry without being fined for it. And if I need to do work, I can determine when or if the water is being turned off.
Oh, and renewing my lease would have seen me paying almost as much in rent as my mortgage payment. For what?
One thing I've learned in SimCity is that a higher population density means you need a corresponding concentration of utility structures as well. Employment opportunities, hospitals, businesses, and schools all need to be close by and in proportion to serve the population. Not to mention managing waste, water, and electricity. In summary, simply building apartments isn't the solution.
Yeah, I love paying 2 grand a month for something I will never own.
Blocks of flats are awful places. No garden to put up a workshed, or greenhouse or anything at all, or play with your dog or kids (and no dog - it would be cruel to keep a dog in a flat and not have it able to roam a garden all day), they're noisy, loud neighbours can be above, below, to the left, to the right, and in front ...
You can't modify your home how you'd like, can't choose what utility companies run into your home, can't let your kid cycle up and down the street and still be able to see and hear them from the windows etc.
I see your point about density absolutely, but I HATE flats. Awful places.
I also hate how people have started trying to make them sound fancy and posh by calling them "apartments" to try to sound fancy and European/French, as if that will make them more appealing.
Apartments suck ass
I own a townhome that i rent out. Have had good tenants for the most part but don't want to deal with the HOA anymore. So we want to sell but sadly the next door neighbor smokes in her unit so much that it smells in our unit.
In this state there is absolutely nothing we can do legally about the problem. The guy across the street destroyed the grassy area in front of his unit and a lean was placed on his unit until it was fixed or he was evicted in 90 days. But actual damage to our unit we were SOL.
This is why people don't want shared units. When your neighbor is an asshole you're usually screwed.
Houses. Apartments would mean I'd have to try my luck with the neighbors. A friend of mine has a neighbor upstairs that makes noise at all hours of the night. I've heard it. It sounds like his neighbor is constantly moving furniture.
My friend has asked the neighbor to quiet down, talked to the apartment complex about it, and even had to call the police to file a noise complaint one time. (My friend has young kids who might get woken up by the noise. That's the main reason he's concerned about it.)
Option C, some selfish dipshit would rather have one building in the spot for the apartment that houses his 2 kids, wife, and himself and that's it
Density builds no equity in the US. At least, not for the renters.
consolidate housing, and transportation. ussr, circa 1940
You're welcome to live up your neighbours arse; I'll keep my large leafy block and free standing home.
Good luck to the apartment dwellers when the next wave of COVID hits.
The house lets you shut out and avoid other people, which is vitally important for safety. People are not good, and they are best avoided when possible. They will hurt you, and enclosed cramped spaces like apartments offer nothing but opportunities and reasons for violence.
Humans need territory and land of their own.
