Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.
It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
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If we can agree on that, (and thus on the ill-advisedness of shouting 'ALL ISRAELI'S MUST GO"), I think we can wrap up here.
Ok see this is it, you don't seem to understand what "isntreali" means. The entire so called "country" of isntreal is built on stolen land and mass killings.
It is a genocidal settler colonial project. Anyone who willingly identifies with it is a fucking scumbag, just like how anyone who identifies as a nazi should be punched at the very least. We've only gone "round and round" because the true nature of isntreal's existence is the fucking point you fail to fucking address.
That Isntreal itself is a fascist genocidal project of pure, fucking, evil. Before anything else. It is not a real country, nor a real ethnicity. It doesn't even have a proper unifying culture beyond genocide.
Therefore, this is just like being a bad faith pedant whenever someone says "death to america" or "plz Xi nuke the shit out of america to kill them all" by saying: "but askhaullyalslajsldalyy there are still native indigenous people there who identify as americans so thats muh ethnic cleansing", completely failing to realize that when you refer to a fascist settler colonial state by name you are referring to the settler population first and foremost. Its already baked into the name itself, because the name refers to the project of utter violence.
"b-b-but muh mass media definition!"
Do you fucking trust the mass media for anything? This is fucking hexbear.net, I don't need to be PC about this shit because I can make the assumption that we are all operating off a common skepticism of mainstream narratives and an understanding of what is truly going on. Because the truth is that Israel isnt real beyond a settler colonial project of utter genocide against Palestine.
And IF individuals and political groups from the populations you listed are patriotic isntreali citizens, then they also need to face some sort of justice like how the fucking Nazi collaborators did and still would if the world was a better place.
All in all this is just an issue of you being a braindead cracker who watches too much CNN and accidentally internalized their worldview, specifically about isntreal ackshually being real.
Israeli citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party. Thousands of Israeli citizens are anti-zionist activists.
"Absolute nonsense. Nazi citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party." If you know what your "country" did and still don't renounce your citizenship then that doesn't make you less of a monster. I don't care if they virtue signal about not being Zionists, the very fact that they self-identify as "Isntreali" is a fucking crime against humanity. There are populations of Jews living in occupied Palestine (isntreal) who dont even acknowledge isntreal as their motherland and instead identify as Palestinian.
If you're kicking out all Israeli's you're kicking out all the jews
You fail to acknowledge that being jewish is no excuse for identifying with a settler colonial death machine.
the truth is that Israel isnt real
There's the materialism we know and love.
Look if you had just said you'd like for me to join you in a ontological flight of fancy where words lose all common language meaning and become pliable as rubber I could have politely declined and we could have saved all this trouble.
Down here, Israel is a materially-extant and internationally-recognized state that is currently genociding the Palestinian people, and 'Israeli' refers to a citizen of Israel.
common language meaning
Appeal to common sense btw. Just because most westerners believe propaganda doesn't mean reality is automatically rewritten.
Down here, Israel materially-extant and internationally-recognized nation that is currently genociding the Palestinian people, and 'Israeli' refers to a citizen of Israel.
Yeah down here in your ass where you have so thoroughly shoved your head, you fucking stupid condescending white piece of rotten elephant shit. You cant appeal to materialism and whatever narrative the state department has been shitting out for 80 years to manufacture consent for a genocide at the same time. Its fucking ridiculous.
The material reality on the fucking ground is that Isntreal is a settler colonial project of mass murder and genocide. Its entire existence would crumble if not for foreign direct investment and "lethal aid", how the hell can you call that a materially-extent "nation". Yes it is something, but it is not a nation with a culture beyond settler colonialism and the ethnic cleansing that follows. You're a idiot who constantly fails to acknowledge this because you have a liberal chauvinist worldview.
that is currently genociding the Palestinian people, and 'Israeli' refers to a citizen of Israel.
Isntreal in itself *is the genocide. How can you not fucking understand this?? It has no purpose in this world other than to enact a project of ethnic cleansing and be the west's regional puppet, absolutely fucking none.
Appeal to common sense btw. Just because most westerners believe propaganda doesn't mean reality is automatically rewritten.
Nope, it's alluding to the more formalized notion of plain meaning rule , which I take, in conjunction with the cooperative principle of communication . You're using essentially bespoke definitions of 'Israeli' and getting angry that anyone might read the plain meaning of 'Israeli' instead.
how the hell can you call that a materially extent nation.
The plain meaning of 'state', again. Which is what I should have said originally, but I'll go back and fix that.
Isntreal in itself *is the genocide.
The genocide is the genocide, as in, the set of actions by the Israeli government that result in the expulsion, privation, immiseration and death of the local Palestinian population.
alluding to the more formalized notion of plain meaning rule
So you're in law school then, explains a lot. We aren't discussing Statutes though so I'm sorry but this is meaningless drivel pulled from your educational background to win an argument where you deny the origin of a genocide. You referred to a "commonsense" liberal understanding of the word "isntreal", not its statutory definition in the american legal system you stupid libshit.
The plain meaning of 'state', again.
"There is no academic consensus on the definition of the state."
The genocide is the genocide, as in, the set of actions by the Israeli government that result in the expulsion, privation, immiseration and death of the local Palestinian population.
LMFAOOOOO holy fucking shit you're actually trying to speak legalese in this discussion, bloody hilarious.
I'm not sure whether they taught you this in law school but Isntreal was created by the west to be a settler colonial puppet state to assert power in the region and enact a manifest destiny type genocide against Palestinians. It isn't that it was innocently created and then somehow turned evil, its very nature, an "original sin" if you like, is to be a racist project of mass murder. To place it on Palestinian land without consent of the indigenous population such that it could steal land and expand was indeed a genocidal act. Its existence necessitates stolen land and therefore is fundamentally genocidal.
You're a funny man son, I hope you dont become a corrupt lawyer in the future.
So you're in law school then
Nope!
We aren't discussing Statutes though so I'm sorry but this is meaningless drivel
We are not discussing statues, but as I pointed out, such notions aren't limited to statutory interpretation, as seen by the cooperative principle of communications advice on the avoidance of ambiguity. If you're not saying things with a goal toward being understood, that's fine, feel free to flout that.
win an argument where you deny the origin of a genocide.
There's no winning an argument. I'm trying to help you understand why your original comment was removed as an accidental call for ethnic cleansing. Obviously I'm failing at that goal but this isn't some debate where I'm trying to score goals with some audience. This thread is a week old, no one else is here.
"There is no academic consensus on the definition of the state."
Sure, there is no academic consensus on the intension of state, but the concept is still used, and Israel is universally considered to be within the extension of the definiens state in the academic community, in the general public, and by 85% of the government in the UN.
then somehow turned evil, its very nature, an "original sin" if you like, is to be a racist project of mass murder.
The problem with Israeli is the act of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, not some ontological evil essence nonsense. Stop the mass murder, reverse the ethnic cleansing, and peacefully integrate into the local polity and woohoo, it's party time. Pieds-noir were allowed to remain in Algeria, even if most of the opted not to., White's in South Africa and Rhodesia, White Poles in Haiti, the list goes on.
Nope!
Go and open an account on lesswrong then, you have such amazing potential to be among the greatest minds.
but as I pointed out, such notions aren't limited to statutory interpretation, as the cooperative principle of communications advise on the avoidance of ambiguity. If you're not saying things with a goal toward being understood, that's fine.
Least pretentious redditor. Its still an appeal to commonsense to insist on a liberal worldview as being the "unambiguous" way to understand Isntreal.
I'm trying to help you understand why your original comment was removed as an accidental call for ethnic cleansing. Obviously I'm failing at that goal but this isn't some debate where I'm trying to score goals with some audience.
I don't care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
Israel is universally considered to be within the extension of state in the academic community, in the general public, and by 85% of the government in the UN.
....But not on hexbear.net where we all know that it isn't real.
In terms of "the academic community and the general public" that really depends on which country you are referring to. Of course in the west the public recognizes isntreal as legitimate because of propaganda and brainwashing, like how everyone supports capitalism. However, I doubt the "academic community" and "general public" in Palestine recognize the validity of the cancer currently resting on their stolen lands. Fuck the UN in particular because they created this entire mess in the first place.
The problem with Israeli is the act of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, not some ontological evil essence nonsense.
"Bro ackshualalflasflasflsaflly isntreal wasnt in fact created with the express purpose of being a genocidal settler state thats just ontological evil essence nonsense bro."
The problem with isntreal is that it is a settler colonial project whose very creation and continued existence was/is contingent on mass murder and ethnic cleansing. They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
This thread is a week old, no one else is here.
I've already reported some of the shit you said to our mods btw they will be here soon. If they don't come then I will call our most terminally online users and dogpile your yudowsky-lite ass for Zionism apologia.
I don't care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
Then what are we talking about?
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
It was understood to be, by several people. Once again you're doing this essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel. They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
Then what are we talking about?
What I don't accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn't.
You answered your own question.
It was understood to be.
Why do I care? Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
If I make some idiot craps their pants because they have a liberal worldview that shouldn't be my problem, especially not on this site where I thought we all shared the same leftist worldview that settler colonial soycieties necessitate utter destruction in their nascent form or else there will be massive, tragic genocide like what happened to the native americans, what could have happened to all of eastern europe, and what is currently happening in what remains of sovereign Palestine.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation. I now understand that its another argument in the arsenal of zionist apologia that the liberals have.
They do exist and are currently geocoding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
My son, the existence of Isntreal itself is a genocide. Look at the map I shared earlier, you cant just go to another country and tell the inhabitants "ok guys im going to start an ethnostate here, move or i kill you". Its fucking settler colonialism, isntreal needs to be destroyed for the genocide to "stop".
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel.
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
Haha, clearly.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation, I know that you don't intend to convey a call for ethnic cleansing and have stated that multiple times. The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
No? That hasn't gotten anything to do with pointing out that 'right to exist' and 'actual existence' are entirely separate concepts, with a 'right to exist' being literally immaterial. Israel has no right to exist, no legitimate claim to existence, nothing like any of that, and yet exists all the same and leverages that existence to continue to genocide the Palestinians. You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Hurr no you're the one with no grip on reality because you dont follow the CNN line!
Ok keep denying a genocide then.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation
I've already demonstrated that you haven't engaged with over 90% of what I wrote because you're a candidate for lesswrong's membership. Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal, akin to america and nazi germany, due to the material necessities of its birth and continued existence. I was not born yesterday moron.
The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding of isntreal and its creation as a settler colonial project of genocide. Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Are you stupid? Israel isnt real because it has no legitimacy as a state, its one giant administrative region for a slaughterhouse of human beings. That is what it means to be a settler colonial project. Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state and that Palestinians lost the land fair and square. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.
I should point out, by way of humorist aside, that I'm actually a neo-pragmatist non-realist, so in a very real sense the 'reality' of any given concept is not a question I'm interested in.
I can tell, I could hear you wanking all the way from america.
Only on Saturday mon frère.