A little consistency would be welcome
A little consistency would be welcome
11 comments
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There is consistency, it’s just that the harmony comes from being anti-American, not pro-peace.
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Yes. Lots of supposed pro Palestinians are actually anti Israel and gladly sacrifice Palestinian lives and livelihood in the name of eternal resistance. Destruction of Israel is the goal. Peaceful coexistence is anathema.
Any government that cares about their citizens, their property, and their future would have surrendered long ago if they faced a defeat like Hamas in Gaza.
The unholy anti-western alliance between some leftists and Islamists is a disgrace to leftism.
The Palestinian people deserves a future in security and prosperity. Hamas‘ strategy and tactics are unable to every deliver on that. Violent resistance has failed for decades and only made the situation worse for Palestinians one defeat after the next.
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Any government that cares about their citizens, their property, and their future would have surrendered long ago if they faced a defeat like Hamas in Gaza.
I'm not sure if this is disingenuous, or you just don't know history.
Yassir Arafat was the leader of the PLO. Arafat and the PLO were working very hard to create a lasting peace that would have gotten Palestinians their land back. They were winning a lot of international support. So the Israeli gov't funneled money to Islamist extremists in Palestine; both Hezbollah, and what became Hamas, all to undercut the PLO's negotiating position. Eventually, as Israel continued resisting negotiations, the Palestinian people became frustrated with the lack of progress, and the PLO lost power.
...Which leads directly to where we are now. (That's a very, very abbreviated and simplified version.)
There are no conditions where Israel will negotiate in good faith with ANY Palestinian political entity. Israel is unwilling to return Palestinian land to Palestinians; Israel is led by Jewish extremists--colloquially called Zionists--that believe that all of the land is theirs because it was promised to them by their god, and so they will NEVER negotiate any peace deal that gives Palestinians their land, or gives them any real measure of power.
There is no future of security and prosperity for Palestinians as long as the world is complicit in Israel's oppression; it wouldn't matter if Hamas was in charge, or if all of the Palestinians were radical pacifists. The only choice is to fight and die, or simply die.
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Arafat rejected several two state peace deals he was offered. Abbas never answered to Olmert‘s offer. Granted these weren’t optimal, but a lot better than what the Palestinians ended up with now.
People like you still defend Arafat‘s rejectionism, which directly lead to the horrific consequences we see today. Griping about not full sovereignty, air space, etc. totally disregards the daily lives of actual Palestinians. Lots of people live good lives in „less than a full state“: Puerto Rico and Greenland for example.
Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan tells the story of Arafat‘s rejection from an insider’s perspective really well.
After rejecting peace deals, Arafat launched the second Intifada. This was far more violent than the first. Arafat thought it would improve his negotiation position, but it had the opposite effect. It lead to Israel no longer seeing the PLO as a serious partner for peace.
If you want to further back in history, there were proposed peace deals in the form the UN partition plan 1947, Israeli peace offers in 1948 and 1967. See the three Noes from Karthoum (no recognition, no negotiation, no peace with Israel).
The PLO went the path of negotiations after they had repeatedly lost their violent attempts at seizing power in Jordan (black September) and Lebanon (civil war). They were at the lowest of their power in exile in Tunisia, when they started their diplomatic attempts. As soon as they had some real power in area A in Palestine, they went back to violence.
A shitty peace deal in 2000 would have been better for Palestinians, than what they got instead. Arafat and Abu Mazen made historic mistakes and now Palestinians are paying the price.
they will NEVER negotiate any peace deal that gives Palestinians their land, or gives them any real measure of power.
The only choice is to fight and die, or simply die.
How casually you advocate for pointless deaths of Palestinians as inevitable is frankly disgusting.
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Griping about not full sovereignty, air space, etc. totally disregards the daily lives of actual Palestinians.
You can't live a 'good life' as a less than full state when your neighbor is Israel. We've got >30 years of history showing us what Israel does when Palestine is less than a full state, e.g., the West Bank, and the illegal Israeli settlers that burn out and kill Palestinians to run them off their land.
How casually you advocate for pointless deaths of Palestinians as inevitable is frankly disgusting.
I'm not advocating for it; I'm stating that pointless deaths of Palestinians are inevitable, unless and until the rest of the world turns Israel into an international pariah. We did it with South Africa; there's no reason we can't do it to Israel.
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Israel has kept the peace with Jordan and Egypt and respected the borders.
Since Hamas came to powering Gaza, Palestinians had deeply divided political leadership. There hasn’t been peace among Palestinians for decades now.
South Africa was a very different situation. The ANC had different demands and acted very differently from Palestinian organizations as well. External pressure on South Africa helped. However the essential part was the white minority government believing the ANC, that there won’t be reprisals after a transition of power.
Hoping for Israel to become an international pariah is one thing. North Korea does just fine as an international pariah for example. Israel as a pariah would turn into an authoritarian religious regime, that would simply expel all Palestinians from the whole land. Israel would become just another brutal authoritarian regime like many in the region.
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Israel as a pariah would turn into an authoritarian religious regime, that would simply expel all Palestinians from the whole land.
Unfortunately, that's looking like it may happen anyway.
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Violent resistance has failed for decades and only made the situation worse for Palestinians one defeat after the next.
I would disagree strongly - Fatah leveraged violent resistance into a near-victory, shot down only by a hair's breadth in an assassination and Israeli internal politiking.
Hamas, which has been supported by Israel since the start, on the other hand, has not been able to leverage violent resistance into any sort of improvement in their situation.
The issue is not violence - it's doubtful that anything other than violence could stop the Israeli state's genocidal ambitions. The issue is that Hamas is incompetent at (or uninterested in) anything other than chest-thumping and suppressing internal Palestinian opposition.
Unfortunately, the immense corruption of Fatah and likewise the discrediting of the PA by Israeli bad-faith negotiation means there are no good options at present. All that can be done is to support the least-bad of them - and, of course, to stop fucking supporting Israel.
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Fatah leveraged violent resistance into a near-victory
Are you talking about the first Intifada? That was mostly peaceful protest and riots throwing stones. It was somewhat violent, but nothing compared to the second intifada with its endless suicide bombings.
The first intifada started out with lots of grass roots organization independent of PLO/Fatah leadership.
Fatah had conducted violent „resistance“ including in Jordan (black September) and Lebanon (civil war) for decades and were repeatedly defeated.
only by a hair's breadth in an assassination and Israeli internal politiking.
Arafat could have said at any time, I accept the offered peace deal. Or he could have made a counter offer, which he never did. Palestinian leadership has in fact never made a peace treaty offer, as in an actual map and detailed conditions.
Hamas is incompetent at (or uninterested in) anything other than chest-thumping and suppressing internal Palestinian opposition
This so much.
immense corruption of Fatah and PA
Yes, these fucks are sitting pretty and getting rich of foreign aid. They should be building an actual economy and institutions for the Palestinian people.
Palestinians have shitty political leadership. The insane Islamist authoritarians of Hamas or the corrupt Fatah police state.
Palestinians deserve better and know it. I believe there will be reflection and change once the war in Gaza has ended.
there are no good options at present
Hamas lets the hostages go and surrenders or goes into exile is the best option for the war to end.
stop fucking supporting Israel
I support Israel‘s existence and their right to defend themselves. I don’t support their government or many of the policies and actions.
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I support Israel‘s existence and their right to defend themselves. I don’t support their government or many of the policies and actions.
Not you personally, I mean that as in "The option is for the US to stop supporting Israel"
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11 comments