France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools
France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools
The education minister says female Muslim students will not be allowed to wear the loose-fitting robe.
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Not every rule is oppressive. For it to be considered oppressive the result has to be harmful. Why is it harmful when girls don't cover their bodies?
If they really chose to cover their bodies freely, so not because they are scared or because they were told that's wrong, where's the harm in not wearing it at school?
Why is it harmful when girls don’t cover their bodies?
It is harmful to force them to either. That your personal opinion is that it is not harmful is not more or less valid than the personal or religious opinion of people who think it is. You are doing the same thing as the people who force their children to wear these clothes by projecting your feelings on their body and freedom, disrespecting their right to choose.
, where’s the harm in not wearing it at school?
In forcing them to do so and also singling them out for that ruling as other kids are not affected. Also have you been among teenagers? Issues with unwanted sexual attention or struggles with the own body image are quite normal at that age and why should you or anyone else force them to expose themselves more than they are comfy with?
Also in the same wake you would need to argue that hoodies are problematic and should be banned too, as they kinda also hide the body and head, when the hood is worn. Why stop there though? An oversized T-Shirt could be also influenced by religious peers to circumvent the ban, better make everyone wear skin-tight outfits?!
In any way it remains arbitrary and inconsistent, which means it is not about protecting those students, but to attack them for their religion.
That's exactly why hoodies, loose fitting close, etc. are not banned in schools. Because they aren't religious symbols. And the kid can hopefully decide for themselves if they wear a wide hoodie or a tight shirt.
Parents don't make their daughters wear an abaya or a headscarf because they think then she will be more comfortable. They demand their daughters to wear this because they believe in a magical person and magical rules that make it necessary for girls and women to cover their bodies.
I can't believe you actually don't see the difference in these?
It's also quite interesting because I think a lot of the people here screaming "but it's their freedom!" would agree that parents, for example, shouldn't forbid their kid from colouring their hair, wearing a short skirt or whatever.
But it's suddenly okay when parents demand a body cover. People need to realise this both stems from ultra conservative beliefs.
You again assume that the teenagers would all be forced to wear it and not make that choice by themselves. But you assume that from afar and you want to make all the teenagers suffer, that choose for themselves to wear it.
It is typical western self rightousness, where the assumption is to know everything better for everyone.
Of course parents shouldnt force their teenagers to wear certain clothes. But you won't stop that like this. Also how should that be done practically? Send the kid home, so it doesnt receive education? Or forcefully undress it? Either way the kids suffer, so people can wank off on how they dont believe "magical persons and magical rules".
The real answer here would be to provide easily reachable social care for children, who suffer from opressive religious parents. But that costs money, is social and might actually help some kids, that are deemed to have the wrong skin colour by the french majority society. So instead the kids are made to suffer.
Yes, you can stop it like that. Simply the same way other rules at school are enforced. You seriously think a french school will force undress their students?
Explain it to their parents again and again. If they still force it on their daughters, send someone from the welfare office to talk to them, let them pay a fine, etc. There are quite a lot of ways how you can help kids who get forced by their parents into sexist beliefs.
You have a very superficial view on integration problems, firmly based in the enragement machine of the news, it seems. Believing that girls and women need to cover themselves doesn't particularly help integration. I even believe these parents force this on their children because they don't want their daughters in particular to integrate.
Yeah again you think yourself enlighted and knowing what is best for people without actually talking with or listening to them. That is a classical colonialist and racist mindset.
Also why do you claim that integration couldnt work, when people are allowed to maintain some of their teligion and culture? What you dont want is immigration. You want assimilation instead.
It would be racist and colonialist to move to another country and demand they change their ways. But that's not what happening.
Some religious and cultural traditions are incompatible with the laws, culture and traditions in other countries. The opression of girls and women are deeply sexist traditions and it is certainly something I don't think should spread to countries without these particular ideas.
I have no trouble with differences in traditions and religious beliefs as long as they don't inherently include an opressive mindset. And the covering of female bodies definitely stems from an opressive mindset.
again you claim to know that all women or teenage girls wearing such aparrael do so because they are forced. You completely deny them the possibility to have choosen to wear this by themselves. And you do that on the basis that you believe your country and your values to be superior and everyone wanting the same for themselves. But that is simply not the case. You cannot adress the real issues of female opression by adding your own opression. Only by creating social services that women who suffer opression can reach out to and receive help for their individual situation, you can actually do something against it. But that is not what is suggested by the fench government and also quite telling, that people in favor of that ban do not consider the necessity to assess the situation individualls, because you entirely deny the possibility that there is muslim teenagers or women who are happy with following these traditions. Hence it is a colonial and racist mindset, because you still deny the individual people their individuality based on your assumption of your own superiority.
I rather think you believe it's totally fine to force sexist traditions because you either live a sheltered, privileged life with no contact to these communities. Or you are from the community and believe your traditions to be superior.
The former seems more likely since you assume a 12 year old getting told by her parents she needs to hide her body in public because otherwise she tempts the men around her will go seek help.
my wife is no longer practising muslim, yet she was happy and chose to do so as a teenager. I trust her authority on issues in the muslim communities, be it in Europe or the Middle East. And she also thinks it is a means of persecution of muslim teenagers like there is an idea like this every year in France to distract from actual political issues.
The struggle with conservatism and integration of religious people is an actual political issue. And if you want to draw from personal anecdotes: I live in a city with strong conservative Muslim communities. They have their thumbs on the women in these communities who are actively kept away from people of different cultures by various means.
It's not persecution to draw a line how far religious beliefs can go and to protect your own cultural values. Giving these children a way to distance themselves from the overbearing influence of their parent's religion is a chance and a sign to them that these rules don't need to permeate all of their life.