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Lemmy.world offically enshrines the siteadmins' right to futher remove "misinformation" at will after an admin overthrew its vegan comm.

lemmy.world Update to Terms of Service + New Bylaws (Protections for users) - Lemmy.World

Hey all, In light of recent events concerning one of our communities (/c/vegan), we (as a team) have spent the last week working on how to address better some concerns that had arisen between the moderators of that community and the site admin team. We always strive to find a balance between the fre...

Previous Hexbear post on this issue by @ButtBidet@hexbear.net

https://hexbear.net/post/3259169

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  • I believe this study. It’s true that vegans say their vegan cats are healthier than other cats.

    no-mouth-must-scream

    • Vegan cats being the thing that tears .world apart is really funny because I've seen it irl and wouldn't be surprised if ya'll already had that struggle session here.

      Not trying to start that debate here if not, but among most vegan groups I've been part of, many people had cats for years before adopting a vegan lifestyle in every other way, so it becomes a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. Otherwise, you get into endless arguments about how the cat havers aren't really vegan. But the non-cat havers offer no real individual solutions and just tip toe around the idea that the cat haver should kill them to balance out the moral calculus, or give them to someone else to wash their hands of the issue while not materially affecting anything.

      If you ever want to destroy a vegan community, ask if you should feed your cat a vegan diet or more generally about taking care of meat-eating animals at all.

      Doubly funny, in an absurd way, is that .world will so fiercely advocate for their kitties, but ignore the deaths of humans that their favorite politicians are causing.

    • plus it was done by a pro vegan group

      It was done by a uni. Fuck off, shit.just.works poster.

      Guy (not OP, I mean the one from .world), fucking read the lit review. The unhealthiness of vegan cat food is based on vibes, not published evidence. There's also a lot of back research that vegan cat food is fine, it's not just this one study. Again, READ THE FUCKING STUDUY.

    • https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132

      To study health outcomes in cats fed vegan diets compared to those fed meat, we surveyed 1,418 cat guardians, asking about one cat living with them, for at least one year. Among 1,380 respondents involved in cat diet decision-making, health and nutrition was the factor considered most important. 1,369 respondents provided information relating to a single cat fed a meat-based (1,242–91%) or vegan (127–9%) diet for at least a year. We examined seven general indicators of illness. After controlling for age, sex, neutering status and primary location via regression models, the following risk reductions were associated with a vegan diet for average cats: increased veterinary visits– 7.3% reduction, medication use– 14.9% reduction, progression onto therapeutic diet– 54.7% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of being unwell– 3.6% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of more severe illness– 7.6% reduction, guardian opinion of more severe illness– 22.8% reduction. Additionally, the number of health disorders per unwell cat decreased by 15.5%. No reductions were statistically significant. We also examined the prevalence of 22 specific health disorders, using reported veterinary assessments. Forty two percent of cats fed meat, and 37% of those fed vegan diets suffered from at least one disorder. Of these 22 disorders, 15 were most common in cats fed meat, and seven in cats fed vegan diets. Only one difference was statistically significant. Considering these results overall, cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets. This trend was clear and consistent.

      Not to be a stick in the mud here, but... what? How on earth does "cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets" follow after "considering these results overall"? You mean the results that weren't statistically significant? Those results? And that one statistically significant disease difference? It was for kidney problems, and the vegan cats had more problems than the non-vegan ones (table 6).

      If there's a case for feeding cats a vegan diet, this ain't it.

      • I'm actually genuinely surprised that cats do that well on a vegan diet. It doesn't have to be healthier than meat to be an upgrade—if it's on par with meat and no animal dies to make it, it's a clear winner.

        I didn't think we were there yet with cat food, but the study seems to suggest we are, even if they try to draw a stronger conclusion from their data than they can actually justify.

      • READ THE STUDY!

        Evidence concerning ingredient bioavailability and interactivity can indeed be lacking, but to our knowledge there is no published evidence that such concerns are any greater for non-animal-based ingredients, than for animal-based ingredients.

        This is why feeding trials are considered the gold standard to ensure nutritional soundness of new formulations [15, 16]. The health status of cats maintained on different diets has been the subject of limited studies to date. In 2021 Dodd et al. [17] published a Canadian-based survey of 1,325 cat guardians, of whom 1,026 described their cat(s) diet. These included 187 (18%) vegan cats. More guardians of vegan cats reported their cat to be in very good health, and fewer were reported to have gastrointestinal and hepatic disorders. These cats were more often reported as having ideal body condition scores, than those fed a meat-based diet.

        FFS don't skim the study. 3% of non vegan cats had kidney problems, 4% of vegan cats did.

        So you're saying that vegan cats had roughly the same health as non vegan cats and we're not destroying our planet in industrial livestock murder. Sounds great!

        • I know it's just the typical denial from non-vegans, but it really surprises me to see such extreme pushback on the idea that we could make vegan catfood. I used to be really skeptical years ago (before I was even a communist), but learning that we already synthesize the meat-exclusive nutrients cats need to add it to normal cat food evaporated most of that previous skeptcism pretty much immediately. I honestly think 1 study is enough in this case and more rigorous studies should just be done on vegan cat food brands to ensure they're being honest (because god knows it would be impossible to get 99% of governments to actually step in and properly regulate it cause they dont even really do that for normal petfoods)

          (for clarity I am not vegan but I do consider myself a vegan sympathizer if that makes any sense at all)

        • READ THE STUDY!

          No need to shout. I did.

          So you’re saying that vegan cats had roughly the same health as non vegan cats

          No. That is not what the study is saying. The study is saying that "we took a look, and couldn't tell if there was a difference or not." Which is understandable, given the methodology. Internet-based questionnaires/surveys are easy to conduct, but tend to have big error bars. It's a common trade-off made when first beginning to investigate a hypothesis.

          It's your typical "absence of evidence" versus "evidence of absence" conundrum. The authors note this in their comments on the limitations of their study and on avenues for further research:

          As we’ve noted previously [30], large-scale cross-sectional or ideally, longitudinal studies of cats maintained on different diets, utilising objective data, such as results of veterinary clinical examinations and laboratory data, as well as veterinary medical histories, should yield results of greater reliability, if sufficient funding could be sourced.

          and we’re not destroying our planet in industrial livestock murder. Sounds great!

          Comrade, I'm not trying to argue that cats are "obligate carnivores," or that cats should or should not have vegan diets. I'm not arguing about whether or not cats can meet their nutritional needs from vegan diets. I am only stating that the particular study linked does not provide any usable evidence in support of a conclusion. That's literally what "no reductions were statistically significant" means: that the collected data is not sufficient to draw reliable conclusions.

          Other studies may very well have more rigorous methodologies that convincingly demonstrate the nutritional completeness of vegan diets for cats. But not this study.

          • eh i disagree. if we generally know what is in meat that cats need that isn't in plants, and we already do synthesize it to put it in normal cat food to enrich it, I don't think we need super rigorous studies about vegan diets in general, just on the specific brands of vegan cat food to try and catch companies who aren't properly enriching the vegan food. I think if there was something else major in meat that we were missing this study would have shown it.

            • I think if there was something else major in meat that we were missing this study would have shown it.

              That's fair enough. Not all nutrient deficiencies have acute presentations, and the seven indicators of illness may not account for all the ways nutrient deficiencies could present, but if the crowd shrieking about animal cruelty was right in its hyperbolic hypothesis, then it would be likely for at least one of those seven indicators to get tripped.

          • FYI I have no patience for non-vegans concern trolling vegan issues. If you're actively harming sentient animals, your opinion is clouded by your own guilt. Apologies in advance if you happen to be vegan.

            So you’re saying that vegan cats had roughly the same health as non vegan cats

            No. That is not what the study is saying. The study is saying that "we took a look, and couldn't tell if there was a difference or not."

            I don't know why you're so concerned about my taking my ending summary, out of context, when I wrote paragraphs summarising the lit review and minor differences in kidney issues with non vegan vs vegan cats.

            couldn't tell if there was a difference or not

            Science doesn't speak in absolutes expect in maths. If you read anything outside of the abstract, you'd see that there's a few other existing studies that support it, no studies claim the opposite, and further research should be done as in all medical research of this type.

            Other studies may very well have more rigorous methodologies

            No kidding. No if only the "cats must eat meat" side had this sorta need for rigorous methodology.

    • I know it's not intentional but fuck me if I didn't doubletake at 1418

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