You're viewing part of a thread.
They have not always been like this and capitalism is simply not going to go away as folks like myself do not want to see it go.
Capitalism is declining. Fascism is rising as a response to this, as disparity grows, and the Rate of Profit falls, the middle and upper classes (small and large business owners, essentially) unite against the lower classes, ie wage laborers. Capitalism will go away regardless of your wishes, it is unsustainable in the long run.
Just curbed greatly.
What's your plan to get this to happen? Without a plan, there's nothing separating ideals from fantasy.
Now granted it depends on what you mean by capitalism.
Production of commodities for the sake of profit among individual Capital owners competing in a market, via wage laborers.
But basically Im fine with a monetary system where folks can buy and sell for profit in order to determine how to allot resources of relative value (ie I will pay more for a south facing even if everything is the same or for a first floor or for a top floor or I don't care and will grab the lowest priced one)
What are you arguing against here, where you don't believe you can present your individual interests?
If capitalism goes away I don't see it being followed up with a working society that would be preferable to live in. So while I don't think its innevitable I agree in its current form it is declining. My plan to get it to happen is democracy. We have to use the leverage we have currently to maximize equal say in government and work towards it. Im not arguing against anything im arguing for the buying and selling of property as an individual to determine what property I will own for things that make sense for an individual to own (so like not education or healthcare) but we have to prevent accumulation of to much property/weatlh/power via regulation like I said before.
If capitalism goes away I don't see it being followed up with a working society that would be preferable to live in.
Why not? Socialism solves the contradictions within Capitalism.
So while I don't think its innevitable I agree in its current form it is declining.
Do you have a reason to believe the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall can be eliminated entirely, not just temporarily avoided by, say, outsourcing production to countries with lower cost of living? That's already been done.
My plan to get it to happen is democracy. We have to use the leverage we have currently to maximize equal say in government and work towards it.
That has never worked in the long run, in history. The ones with the power to influence government are the ones with the money, this problem is getting far worse. What is your actual, practicible plan?
Im not arguing against anything im arguing for the buying and selling of property as an individual to determine what property I will own for things that make sense for an individual to own (so like not education or healthcare) but we have to prevent accumulation of to much property/weatlh/power via regulation like I said before.
You can do that under systems other than Capitalism, why are you tied to it? That's why I asked what you're arguing against, that's like saying you want Capitalism because you want the sun to rise.
How do you take away power from the people who make the laws? Convincing them it's the right thing to do?
This goes back to a small part of my statement a few replies back. "Now granted it depends on what you mean by capitalism." If everything I wrote about personal property and profit are fine in your socialism and its a democracy then im fine with it but I would call your socialism a blend of socialism and capitalism which in my view is actually regulated capitalist system.
What do you think Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are?
The profit motive is bad, accumulation of Capital results in enshittification, increased exploitation, increased disparity, and Imperialism, and should be moved away from.
Socialism doesn't mean you can't own your house, or that you can't express preference, and neither does Communism.
What, specifically, is the advantage of the profit motive, in your eyes?
Additionally, we have shown that we cannot simply regulate Capitalism out of its own destruction, that cannot happen structurally, so why stick with it?
profit comes from pricing. I mean I gave an example. when an apartment complex is built there are different floors and different facings. None of that is part of the cost of building the units. The units cost to build is all the same but depending on personal preference some will want something more than another be it floor or facing. That preference will need to be "fought" over by price which will result in profit or loss. If most folks don't want a particular facing or floor then those might be sold at loss and made up for with profit from the more wanted units. Even before that construction is determined by cost of materials which is determined by how difficult it is to source them which mostly comes about because of the labor that is needed to do it. Also regulation has shown to result in better capitalism. limiting media ownership is an example. breaking up monopolies, limiting levels of profit, and taxing itself. taxing is the ultimate form of regulation really when done progressively. The more profit you make the harder it is to make more profit if all profit is taxed on a progressive scale.
profit comes from pricing.
Profit comes from selling Commodities at their Value.
I mean I gave an example. when an apartment complex is built there are different floors and different facings. None of that is part of the cost of building the units. The units cost to build is all the same but depending on personal preference some will want something more than another be it floor or facing.
Cool, this doesn't contradict anything.
That preference will need to be "fought" over by price which will result in profit or loss.
No it does not, there are methods to distribute by preference without price. Additionally, you can sell commodities without doing so for profit.
If most folks don't want a particular facing or floor then those might be sold at loss and made up for with profit from the more wanted units.
Again, don't see what this has to do with anything.
Even before that construction is determined by cost of materials which is determined by how difficult it is to source them which mostly comes about because of the labor that is needed to do it.
Sure.
Also regulation has shown to result in better capitalism. limiting media ownership is an example. breaking up monopolies, limiting levels of profit, and taxing itself. taxing is the ultimate form of regulation really when done progressively. The more profit you make the harder it is to make more profit if all profit is taxed on a progressive scale.
I didn't say regulation was bad, I said it can't fix, only delay. Are you actually reading what I'm saying, or talking past me?
Im not trying to talk past you but either we have a different definition of capitalism which means we agree but to me you want capitalism and just not call it capitalism or we just don't see things the same. Right now I see the big difference here "" distribute by preference without price". You see in most cases that implies a lack of private property. Private property means I chose what I wanted and the distribution is by how much I will give up for it. If someone or something is making the decision then im not really owning what I want to own. I honestly think this is something you and I are not going to come to terms with. You say you want currency and ownership but seem to claim you don't want profit to be a thing and im trying to explain why profit (and loss) would have to be a thing. You say "Profit comes from selling Commodities at their Value." well yeah. That is what folks competing with their currency for what they want or taking something they want less to save currency to use on something they care about more is all about.
Im not trying to talk past you but either we have a different definition of capitalism which means we agree but to me you want capitalism and just not call it capitalism or we just don't see things the same.
For clarity, I am a Communist. I want to move towards Socialism, and then Communism, over time. Capitalism necessitates production for profit, it doesn't mean any system with a market.
Right now I see the big difference here "" distribute by preference without price". You see in most cases that implies a lack of private property.
Yes, I disagree with the concept of Private Property along Marxist lines.
Private property means I chose what I wanted and the distribution is by how much I will give up for it.
No, it does not, at all. Private Property refers to individual ownership of the Means of Production.
If someone or something is making the decision then im not really owning what I want to own.
You can make these decisions without Capitalism and without the profit motive, at different points in the transition between Capitalism to Socialism to Communism.
I honestly think this is something you and I are not going to come to terms with. You say you want currency and ownership but seem to claim you don't want profit to be a thing and im trying to explain why profit (and loss) would have to be a thing.
I do not want currency in the long run, no, but in the short run it can be a useful tool. I do not want individual ownership of the Means of Production, no, but I do want personal ownership of goods and public ownership of Capital. Producing commodities and selling them for their cost of production via central planning is not Capitalism.
You say "Profit comes from selling Commodities at their Value." well yeah. That is what folks competing with their currency for what they want or taking something they want less to save currency to use on something they care about more is all about.
Not necessarily. Value and Price are not the same thing. Commodities can be sold above and below their Value.
yeah so since I want ownership and specifically a currency to buy and sell with, we just fundamentally disagree as you do not want it in the long run and I do.