Anti-whaling activist Paul Watson could face up to 15 years’ prison in Japan if convicted
Anti-whaling activist Paul Watson could face up to 15 years’ prison in Japan if convicted
Watson, founder of Sea Shepherd and co-founder of Greenpeace, has been arrested on an international warrant and is facing charges including accomplice to assault and ship trespass
You're viewing a single thread.
As a Faroese national I have nothing positive to say about this man. I wouldn't wish the amount of hatred and racism I've faced because that self-righteous cult leader in my worst enemy.
I advocate against Japanese whaling, but I would never stand with this ignorant cunt. And if they locked the fucker up, I believe that there is a much higher chance of a meaningful resolution.
If you don't want to be hated, don't murder whales. It's very easy, literally most people do it.
Faroese have hunted whales since time basically immemorial as people with more land have hunted deer. They are also allowed to, under international law, to hunt whales just as say Inuit are. Their hunting is sustainable, always has been.
The anti-whaling convention was instituted to stop commercial exploitation of the seas, to stop the great whaling ships, it was not instituted to stop people feeding themselves.
So kindly fuck off and I have a song for you.
If there were a nation that still practiced cannibalism, should everyone be fine with it because they've been doing it a long time and it's part of their culture? Even if sustainable because they only ate the criminals?
Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't mean it should still be acceptable, especially as we learn more such as the intelligence and importance to the food chain that whales have. It's not like there are no other options.
Let me guess yet another vegan.
The Faroer don't have enough arable land for everyone to switch to a vegan diet. They could import the rest of what they need, yes, but their only notable export product is fish so that wouldn't make much sense would it.
And with "only notable export product" I mean "stamps are on place number two". You know, the kind you glue onto envelopes.
Just to be clear, you're no longer saying it's ok to kill whales because it's cultural and they've been doing it a long time? You're now saying that it's ok because they would be economically ruined if they didn't kill whales?
I'm not trying to be combative, just trying to clarify.
Both are things that make killing whales ok. It's just that when arguing with vegans "they'd literally starve" is a way more productive argument.
Got it, thanks for clarifying. I think both lines of reasoning have problems though:
- X is ok because it's cultural and we've been doing X for a long time.
- Y is ok because we would be economically ruined if we didn't do Y.
I can think of many things to fill in for X and Y that satisfy the necessary conditions, but still aren't ok. I do, however, think this line of reasoning is valid:
- Z is ok because we would literally starve if we didn't do Z.
I don't think any vegan would take issue with #3, since in that case Z is necessary, and vegans are only concerned with unnecessary harm.
I mean I could have gone deeper into it but then I didn't particularly feel like arguing with a vegan. Yes, I'm speciesist, we can leave it at that.
The Faroer certainly needed whaling in the past to survive, and that necessity has engrained itself in their solidarity culture -- everything about how the hunt is done and distributed is communal, closest comparison I can come up when looking at Germany would be the status of the fire department in a village: Not the inn, not the church, not even the football club, but the fire department is the core and beating heart of the community and its solidarity. They had a brief stint with commercial whaling but they stopped that before commercial whaling got outlawed, couldn't compete with the Norwegians and their giant ships.
Faroese being as green and nature-conscious as they are they would indeed stop if the whales were endangered... but they aren't. Dolphins are controversial, I guess they're going to stop hunting them within the next decade or two. That, or the rest of us are going to poison the seas even more so that the meat becomes completely inedible. It's dire.
So from what you're saying, it seems like not only is killing whales unnecessary for the Faroer anymore, but the document you linked seems to imply that it's actively detrimental to their health.
Also this response doesn't really engage with what I said before about the lines of reasoning being flawed. You're painting a picture of how whaling has been an integral part of their cultural history, and that's interesting information, but it doesn't really relate to whether it's the right thing to do.
So again, it's an argument of the form "X is ok because it's cultural and we've been doing X for a long time," which I don't think is very persuasive.
And one more thing: you're now saying that they don't kill whales commercially? So "Y is ok because we would be economically ruined if we didn't do Y" doesn't even apply, right? Or am I reading what you said incorrectly?
You have yet to establish, or even argue, that eating whale meat is a wrong in the first place. Approaching your life from an "if it's not proven to be ok, then it's bad" kind of perspective may be jerkoff fuel for the dedicated moralist, but is ultimately not anyone's principle of acting. It's not how our minds work. It is a convenient way to acquire a crippling load of shame if one so wishes.
it’s actively detrimental to their health.
Life is dangerous to health.
Or am I reading what you said incorrectly?
Yes. You're mixing up different things.
I have never murdered whales. Nor have my children. We still being harassed.
Somehow it's still your fault. I'm very progressive.
Lemmy says "Indigenous rights" until it's white people, I guess.
Why do you care more about one person than your culture of murdering whales? Why do you speak up about him but not your tradition that you apparently don't participate in??
So the person who said this rhetoric breeds racism and xenophobia is now being demanded to renounce their culture and apologize for the actions of other people (just because they're the same ethnicity)...
Sounds like they were right.
Well. I don't see anything inherently wrong in killing whales for food if it is done sustainability and humane. I much prefer it to wasteful battery farming.
No amount of whaling is currently sustainable, and won’t be for many generations.
Long-finned pilot whale, Atlantic white-sided dolphin. Neither are endangered, on the contrary: Both are listed as Least Concern.
Gross. Whales are intelligent, social creatures. That's like eating chimpanzee.
I haven't tasted chimpanzee but I doubt it's the same. I have tasted pig, which are also intelligent and social, and it tasted nothing like whale.
When your moral arguments only apply when they fit your world view. They mean nothing.
Maybe they also don't eat pigs? I eat meat (FUCK chickens), but I haven't eaten pork for years after getting to know my neighbors pet pigs. Sure, they're more socialized and a whole different breed from factory farm pigs, but still they're too smart for me to be comfortable eating them. But my point here is that you're accusing them of hypocrisy or inconsistency, without ever establishing that they actually are being hypocritical or inconsistent.
I take your point, and i also don't eat pork. Not because I know a pig, but because of the terrible conditions most pigs are farmed under, and because all pork is imported here.
For me, loving an animal before you kill it is a part of lift. When I was a child, we often took rejected lambs into the house to bottle feed them. They become pets and then they became supper.
And I'd much rather that then only know meat as something you collect at the super market. Even though it would be more comfortable, the disconnect between meat and living creatures that modern people have often sickens me. So I'd much rather eat your neighbours pig than a factory framed one.
My point thought, is that no one gets outraged, justifys harassing people and wished death upon their entire family and country for eating pigs. So in reality, it's not about intelligence and social behaviour. It's about your culture being right and everyone else being wrong.
is that no one gets outraged, justifys harassing people and wished death upon their entire family and country for eating pigs.
You uh... wanna bet about that one?
Values a culture finds truly abhorrent are combated. You're using the same arguments people use to defend confederate monuments, or anti-LGBT laws. It's tragic that your traditions cause harm, but just because they're traditional and your culture doesn't mean they're not disgustingly cruel.
Yeah, we need to either stop or wildly reform factory farming. No argument there. But just because you think it's cultural imperialism doesn't make it reasonable to torture other creatures to death.
The big difference here is that, while I will absolutely admit to and work damn hard to change my own culture, you can't even admit the cruelty inherent to your own traditions. My tribe used to hunt whales. We saw the barbarity of it. We stopped. Why are you special?
For a minute I thought you might be reasonable, that's why I was willing to engage with you, but now I see that your see just more well spoken than the other commenters. We don't have to agree, but we can't have a dialog when you're just being argumentative and contrary.
I have never said that tradition as a reason for anything. Not here, nor ever. In fact, our traditions have all been continually modified to grow with our values. That's why they prevail. The ironic thing is that you compare me to conservative oppressors when you act exactly like an old bigot who is being confronted with values differing form their own.
I thought we were talking about one food source over another but then you go off about cruelty and torture. That's just ignorant.
And then now you're going to play the indigenous card? If you saw the barbarity why are there so many who still haven't? Are the just all savages?
Your are not better than your ancestors, brother. You were just colonized.
That's not really a good take though. You don't need to be intelligent or social to be worthy of the moral consideration to not be eaten. Otherwise we'd be eating babies.
Yeah, that doesn't logically follow. Nobody said it's the one, singular consideration.
You're comparing a species of animal (whale) to the age of an animal (baby). Two completely different things...
Too bad
Care to elaborate?
He doesnt like being called a disgusting freak for slaughtering whales, letting them slowly die after dragging them on land to maximize their suffering. Thats the only reason i can think of for why a faroe national would be mad at him.
I dont like him either, but this level of hatred only comes from people who got caught in the act and dont want anyone to talk about it.
As long as you’re vegan or happy with being called a disgusting freak for eating animal products I think that’s fine.
It's not about being vegan or not in this case.
The Faroe islands have a traditional whale/dolphin (I don't remember which exactly) slaughter every year.
They drag dozens of them on beaches and kill them. It used to be one of their main food sources for the year, which is respectable.
But nowadays they don't need to do it anymore, yet carry on with this super cruel tradition.It's a bit like bull runs and bull fighting, I get the traditional side of it, but it's something that should not be performed anymore because of the suffering and cruelty it causes.
You are capable of subsisting without the consumption of animal products, and I assume you choose not to do so. You know that animal agriculture causes suffering. You choose your taste preferences instead of choosing to reduce suffering.
You don’t need to do it anymore, yet carry on with this super cruel tradition.
Permanently Deleted
Please, go ahead, tell us about your grand plan of growing enough food on the Faroer. And then go ahead and tell other native populations all over the world to stop living off the land sustainably, and instead go in debt to buy HFCS from Nestle.
Hey so there’s this crazy thing called a “boat”, and you may not believe this, but it’s like a big truck which can go over water. And you can basically put whatever you want on it, so you can grow fruits and vegetables in Scotland, and then move them to the Faroe Islands.
They actually worked this one out a little while ago, and they’ve got these big buildings now just full of food, just shelves upon shelves with all kinds of foodstuffs. I know it sounds unbelievable, but here’s a photo of a supermarket on the Faroe Islands!
Now, I know you might be thinking, “well, hang on, doesn’t having a big boat like that cause climate change?” and the answer is “yes, but waaaaay less than animal agriculture.”
You also mentioned something about Nestlé HFCS, which I’m happy to reassure you about - It’s pretty rare over here, it’s really more of an American thing. We do have sugary foods as well, of course, but less so. But you can just choose not to eat those - it’s not like it is in the US where they put it in everything. And they’re not putting HFCS into the raw fruits and vegetables that you’d use to make a plant-based meal.
But you know what? Even if there are people living off the land sustainably - as in, fully providing for themselves and their families in whatever way they can without actively farming animals - and we’re okay with that, it doesn’t justify those of us who don’t live in that way to consume animal products.
Hope this helps!
Even if there are people living off the land sustainably - as in, fully providing for themselves and their families in whatever way they can without actively farming animals - and we’re okay with that,
So you're ok with what the Faroese are doing, got it. Wait no you want to stop them letting sheep graze the parts of the island which aren't suitable for agriculture, and instead whale more.
it doesn’t justify those of us who don’t live in that way to consume animal products.
Go on, tell me more about how the Faroese are living. How much of their economy, do you think, is food production in one way or the other? How, do you think, is the whale hunt organised? Is it commodified?
Having looked at that data (I trust you already have since you sound so sure and knowledgeable) one could of course say "well they could stop exporting fish then they wouldn't need to whale". There's something to that, and it would also mean that they couldn't afford to import machinery any more, couldn't afford gas any more, no textile imports, and with them again sitting in row boats in sheepswool clothing maybe they'd look "primitive" enough for your tastes to be allowed to whale, again.
Seriously WTF. "This reservation has a supermarket, that means they should not be allowed to hunt any more". Are you hearing yourself. Read this.
Could you please check the comment thread, look at who I replied to, what they said, and what my response was? If anything, I have been defending the Faroese, not criticising them. I have been criticising people who are being hypocritical about the Faroese whaling while also supporting traditional western animal agriculture.
I’ve not really taken much of a position on the Faroese themselves - except in my last message where I said that I don’t really have a huge issue with subsistence/survival consumption of animal products, as much I do with industrialisation of those products.
For what it’s worth, I’m sure the slave industry made some societies and cultures economically viable which are no longer so. I don’t think “but then this culture/tradition/religion/society would have to adapt to changes” is a particularly strong argument against abolishing cruel or immoral systems of oppression. But that’s not really the argument I’m interested in, right now, and it’s not the argument I originally made.
My argument is that the average person, who is absolutely capable of living a life without the consumption of animal products, with little or no impact to their quality of life beyond their taste preference, cannot justify that behaviour beyond selfishly prioritising their taste preferences over the suffering of others.
My argument is that the average person, who is absolutely capable of living a life without the consumption of animal products
Oh so you're a vegan got it. The Faroer don't have enough arable land to support living off plant agriculture, they need the sea to survive. Import? Possible in principle but without fish to export, with what money? It's like telling Inuit they should live off salad (literally what they call all vegetables): Greenland is much larger but not exactly suited for agriculture.
And much unlike bullfighting the Faroese actually take care to make the killing humane. In fact missing your shot when hunting deer should cause a lot more suffering than what they're doing, for the most part the animals are first beached, uninjured and generally fine (it's not like they can't breathe air), the killing itself takes seconds. The sight of course isn't pretty, lots of blood in shallow bays certainly leaves an impression but that impression says nothing about how much the animals suffered.
They care about continuing to whale because it's a core part of their culture, they don't care about preserving random details like using old and slow and awkward knife techniques instead of the current spinal lancing, they care about things like their solidarity being expressed and reinforced in the communal activity and the distribution scheme.
Not remotely accurate.
What's not accurate about my comment?
Faroese whaling is a century old tradition that used to be about survival and used whale parts for food and other things like light, fishing material, clothing, etc.
Nowadays, we have replacements for pretty much all these things right ? Whale meat doesn't seem to be widely consumed much anymore, it's also dangerous because of mercury levels in the whales.
Yet the Faroese kill around 700 whales a year, and in a pretty cruel fashion. They force the whales to beach themselves, have their spinal cord and a few major arteries severed and left to bleed out and die over the course of minutes.
I'm all in for traditions but not for cruel and pointless ones.
Nothing is accurate about your content.
Well, then educate me and please share accurate information then.
My source is the Wikipedia page which is nicely sourced with plenty of Faroese references: Whaling in the Faroe Islands.
Unfortunately I can't read Faroese, so maybe all that sourced information has been lost in translation ?
Educate yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_the_Faroe_Islands
Well if you reread my comment, that was my original source and I've been told that it was inaccurate, so I asked for another source.
Thanks for the information. Even though your source looks as biased as mine, at least I have contradictory information to make my mind on the matter.
I'm not trying to enlighten anyone on their culture, I respect all cultures but we need to weed out, or at the very least reform, cruel traditions and practices and that's not limited to Faroese whaling or bullfighting.
It's a good thing that whaling has been heavily reformed in the past few years, and it's also aiming to lessen the suffering of the animals.
Ha ha it really is hard for some people to admit they are wrong "I will not discuss that" wtf lol.
How about just don't? Pretty easy.
Hi friend.
Thanks for validating my statement.
Did this ^ guy really not get that im making fun of him for being a little crybaby?
I understand you fine.
Permanently Deleted
The hatred and racism part.
Since the eighties Sea Shepherd, led by Paul Watson, has been using images from Faroese whale slaughter to spread propaganda in order to gain financial support and volunteers. If you have seen images of a bays surrounded by green mountains coloured red in the blood of pilot whales. That's my people.
Don't get me wrong. Those images are real, thought often over saturated for dramatic effect. But everything else told by SS is either exaggerated or blatant lies.
These lies garner attacks on anyone remotely contacted to the Faroe Islands (often also Denmark, because uninformed people don't know the difference). Even children are fair game. Kids are taught not to post anything Faroes related, because they WILL be harassed for it.
Don't believe me? Go to any r/travel or r/EarthPorn post about the Faroes and you will see comments wishing death upon the poster and all the inhabitants. We are all guilty by association.
You should be able to get your point across without spreading lies and hatred. Especially when it comes up whaling. But it's not about the whaling itself. It's about getting people riled up so they join your cult.
Maybe you guys should stop slaughtering whales
Right? It's real fucking simple.
That not my call
Then, while it's going on, don't be surprised that people see your country in a poor light
Just try not to harass my children. There's no call for that.
Still nothing WHAT they allegedly lied about, only what the effects of said pictures were.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_the_Faroe_Islands
- been going on since the 9th century
- Faroese cuisine is generally dominated by the use of animal products, as only about 2% of the 1,393 km2 of land on the islands is at all suitable for arable crops
- a 2008 paper in Australian Archaeology said conservationists find Faroese whaling particularly offensive because it does not conform to traditional Western perspectives on "primitive" tribes
But, you see, I think my culture is superior so they should stop.
Anyway, who's up for an ethically* slaughtered cow that I've raised in a box?
Wow I didn’t realize that cows were endangered. I also didn’t realize that we slaughtered cows by drowning them.
Both long-finned pilot whales and Atlantic white-sided dolphins aren't endangered, they're least concern. They've always been hunting sustainably.
Yeah this has mad "shooting the messenger" vibes
So if Sea Shepherd’s attacks were all honest, there would be less vitriol?
Does he lie in a specific way that implicates innocent people? (vs. lying in a way that garners broader attention and the attention is what drives the additional hate) Curious for some examples as someone low-information on the subject.
Yes. It is fairly common for SS volunteers to settle on the Faroes after falling in love with the culture. They go to fight against barbarians who torment whales for fun and sport, but find kind hearted people who utilize an abundant food source in the most humaim way possible. Also there are other anti whaling-organisations whose members are civil.
There are three types of lies. The main ones are attacks on the Faroese people, how they enjoy blood sport, and torturing animas. These are aimed at everyone but men get a few special ones like how rape and spousal abuse is rampant on the Faroes. Secondly there are lies about the slaughter itself, how long it takes, how much suffering there is etc. And lastly there are factual lies. That pilot whales are on the brink of extinction and that the Faroes kill like 90% of them without eating the meat.
Paul isn't out harassing inuit communities. Do you know why? Because inuit communities practice ACTUAL sustenance hunting, not a tradition of slaughter dressed up as "culture". Do not disgrace actual caretakers of the land to cover up your barbarism
I can't speak on all inuit communities, but I know enough to know that you are ignorant.
I know that Greenlanders are allowed to hunt whales of varying degrees of endangerment with traditional tools in small numbers in order to preserve cultural heritage.
This is less sustainable and surely less humane than Faroese practices. Whether it's worth persevering the heritage is a completely different question.
The reason why SS target the Faroes is because if the gory images of slaughtering in the open combined with the general ignorance of the rest of the would on the topic.
There are many nations that do whaling, none of whom do it more humanely than the Faroes, yet only a few are harassed by SS, and none to the same degree.
"how dare you call us out for the horrific things we're doing ". Like you don't even pretend it's fake.
Hey, you don't like people shitting on your country? How about you make them stop slaughtering whales for no fucking reason.
Like, I'm sorry, am I supposed to feel bad that people are rightfully calling you out for that shit? Is your country not a modern, functioning society? Are you really incapable of shedding these pointless barbaric traditions, and would rather just cry about it when someone dares to call you out?
Let me guess, "I refuse to discuss this with you" or whatever. Like you response to the other person.
I'm beginning to think you have more at stake in this than just being from the same country. I'm from the US, dude, my country is shit and there's a million things to criticize it for... And you can't even admit the one thing your home is known for is barbaric
Permanently Deleted
Is your country not a modern, functioning society? Are you really incapable of shedding these pointless barbaric traditions, and would rather just cry about it when someone dares to call you out?
Have you actually looked into the topic or are you simply assuming? The Faroese regulations on whaling are extensive, from what methods are allowed to beach the whales to how the killing is to be done so it's quick.
I’m from the US, dude
Then you should really focus on the complete absence of any animal protection laws in the US, instead. The Faroese didn't even blink when outlawing the traditional way to kill the whales in favour of spinal lancing, yes of course whales bleeding out in shallow bays is a gruesome sight. And they own that, while risking their lives driving the whales in small boats.
Meanwhile, US consumers are safely isolated from the absolutely abhorrent conditions their food is produced under. The bloody bays aren't avoidable, they come (literally) with the territory. Chicken rotting while still alive because they're so tightly packed and hygiene isn't an issue because you're chlorinating them anyway is avoidable.
It's you, here, who's alienated from how food is produced, not the Faroese.
what has he done to garner hatred against the faroe people other than condemn their whaling?
I'm not starting over with you...
He has done more harm for his cause by insisting on being front and center in wale wars. The Japonese wale hunters were more appealing than him.
Yes.